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Topic: Did CRISIS ruin the Industry? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 26 August 2017 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

PS to Adam:
Just to clear up Power Girl, she was retconned as a descendant of  Arion of Atlantis, not Orion of the New Gods.(Although that would have been a lot more interesting!).
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 26 August 2017 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

 Adam Schulman wrote:
JB -- is it fair to say that DC writers, not readers, were really the ones who got confused about who belonged on which Earth?

Over the years, different "Golden Age" characters ended up on Earth-One (the Guardian, Air Wave, Sargon the Sorcerer, some others I can't remember) when they should've been only on Earth-Two. Superboy was supposed to be the first superhero on Earth-One...but then we discovered he wasn't.

I mean, it shouldn't have been that hard to remember "Every version of a character that appeared before 1955 belongs on Earth-Two; every version after that belongs on Earth-One. Exception: Superboy."

And yet writers ranging from Dennis O'Neil to Jack Kirby forgot this simple rule. And editors didn't do their job.
Was that ever a real rule? Most of the characters that popped up were relatively minor: Wildcat, Sargon. the Vigilante and Guardian. And I don't think they were meant to be the Earth 2/Golden Age versions. The precedent  for that was set by having Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman exist on both Earths.
I think "the rule" was part of the compartmentalization we fans partake in. Writers were more inclined to use a character because they liked them. Heck, the Earth 1 Vigilante actually appears before we even know there is an Earth 2 version.
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 26 August 2017 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Bob Haney was the primary example of DC writers ignoring which characters were on which Earths, putting Wildcat in B & B.
Of course, even his stories that were only supposed to involve Earth-1 took some liberties. I used to wonder if Haney and Bob Kanigher got along, simply because Haney's use of 'old' Sergeant Rock in team-ups with Batman seemed like a big 'so what?' to Kanigher's strict insistence that Rock did not survive World War II.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 26 August 2017 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

For me, Crisis was a gift. Back when SUPERMAN THE MOVIE
came out, I asked my Mother for a Superman comic. I
picked SUPERMAN FAMILY 190.

Now, my knowledge, as a 5 year old, of what made up
Superman's world was completely informed by television
and film. I had reruns of the George Reeves series, the
60's Filmation cartoons, Superfriends, and the Chris
Reeve film. Superman was born on Krypton where his
parents, Jor-El and Lara sent him to Earth where he was
raised in Smallville by Martha and Jonathan Kent. He grew
up, moved to Metropolis and became a newspaper reporter
for the Daily Planet with ace reporter Lois Lane, cub
photographer Jimmy Olson, editor in chief Perry White and
was Superman. That's all I knew.

Imagine my confusion when I read this comic where Lois
and Clark don't work for a paper but television stations,
Clark being an anchor newscaster. Jimmy is an ace
reporter. There's a Super-Dog named Krypto and some weird
story about two guys named Nightwing and Flame bird from
some alien city named Kandor.

I was lost and didn't pick up another Superman issue
until JB became his run. Crisis started everything over.
All of the information that I knew about Superman had
been restored. From there I could then learn about the
other things, but I had my foundation. If things didn't
play out with Superman, post Crisis, as they did, my
return to the character would have been short lived.

My issue with the post Crisis reboot was they didn't
treat the entire line in this way. Besides Wonder Woman,
everything else either got a soft reboot or none at all.

Edited by Stephen Churay on 26 August 2017 at 9:55pm
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 26 August 2017 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Batman definitely got more than a 'soft' reboot.
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 1:00am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

"Was that ever a real rule? Most of the characters that popped up were relatively minor: Wildcat, Sargon. the Vigilante and Guardian."

Mike -- I always thought it was supposed to be a rule. When it became clear that a few superheroes with powers -- not even magical powers like Sargon, but "scientific" powers -- had appeared on Earth-One before Superboy, that made for an awkward revelation. I'm thinking of Air Wave and Commander Steel in particular. (The latter wasn't even a character who who'd really been around in the 1940s! He was created in the 1970s!)

Of course, Roy Thomas, being Roy Thomas, provided an explanation as to how characters from Earth-Two "moved" to Earth-One in the pages of ALL-STAR SQUADRON, right before the ending of CRISIS made the explanation totally moot.

I still don't think the "singleverse" was necessarily a bad idea but it did make for what some readers latter called "Earth-Clutter" -- i.e., too many super-people on one Earth. Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family, in particular, never really fit in with the JLA, Titans, etc. no matter what anyone did. I think they should've been moved to their own, whimsical world and title, aimed specifically at kids (not teens, kids), where they would never cross over with the mainstream DC Universe.

Or the ending of CRISIS could've left us with a multiverse slightly different than the one before CRISIS. That would've been OK too.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 1:07am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"Not as long as the companies are effectively in the control of elitist fanboys."

I find it hard to believe that any of the present editors at Marvel and DC are any kind of "fanboys"--good or bad.  Same thing for most of the big name writers.  The impression I get is that they barely know the characters and most of "the old stuff" can be thrown out the window.  They're all trying to one-up each other on how to make their mags "cool" and how they can make "boring old do-gooders" edgy by making them a secret Nazi, a sex freak, or maybe finally killing their unarmed arch enemy.

Perhaps I'm wrong.  At least with the old "fans turned pros," you often knew them from the letters pages, and then we knew the good editors because they were good writers first.  With the absence of letters pages these days, and no freelancers ever seeming to "graduate" to editorial anymore, who knows where the new crop of editors comes from?

And it's really hard to complain about writers like Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Steve Gerber, etc. starting as fans--at least they were fans of people like Stan Lee, Ditko, and Kirby.  If today's younger editors ARE "fanboys," I fear that they were raised on horrible 90's Image and Image rip-offs or quirky amateurish Indie comics.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 6:18am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Eric, the older fans turned pro had the old pros in the
office. There was also the thought that kids starting
reading comics at ages 8-10.

The current group of editors came in at the turn of the
millennium or a couple years earlier. Instead of keeping
the previous group around (Your Simonsons, Sterns,
Mackies, Defalcos, Byrnes, etc.)As editors and mentors,
they decided they knew better, and seemed from the
outside, to push them out. All of the sudden, we start
getting content geared to 25 year olds.

They threw the baby out with the bath water.

Edited by Stephen Churay on 27 August 2017 at 6:22am
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I agree with Eric. Many of today's writers worship at the alter of Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and others who wrote "big" stories. Opinions of those guys may vary but today's writers have adopted the philosophy that every story MUST matter. The new Mister Miracle series is a good example of how this thinking comes forth. It can't just be a cool story about Mister Miracle, reviews are trying to say that it's the "next" Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns before the second issue comes out. I don't think those two stories, whether you like them or not, were meant to have the long-term effect that they've had on the industry. Today's writers seem to want their stories to resonate for decades but instead of telling a good story, they kill a character or decide "everything you knew was wrong!". Personally, I think the Dark Phoenix Saga is the greatest comic book story of all time but as JB has told us, he and Chris Claremont didn't set out to make a classic. It just happened. 

As far as today's artists go, many range from being early 90's Image rip-offs to bland and boring IMO. Very little storytelling in that type of art with a lot of talking heads.

Adding to Stephen's thought about editors...DC seems to have better editors right now because they come across as more professional. Marvel's editors seem like (based on interviews and letters pages) kids who grew up watching the X-Men cartoon and are just happy to be working with Brian Michael Bendis.



Edited by Shawn Kane on 27 August 2017 at 6:48am
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The first story I came across about Earth-2 was a backup Huntress tale in Batman (or was it Brave and Bold?). The continuity was explained in a couple of panels and as a young reader I understood it right away. Crisis solved a problem that existed only in the minds of the folks who were keeping strict records of what Superman or Batman did when, which was silly because the the comics of the 50's and 60's weren't written with that kind of consistency in mind. 

I wonder if the annual crossover events of Marvel and DC come from a subconscious urge by editors to make sure the events of all their books are set to a "Greenwich Mean Time", and thus preserve continuity. 


Edited by Joe Zhang on 27 August 2017 at 6:52am
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

If I remember right, the 'exception' to the 'Superboy was first' rule was Captain Comet, since he had been published from 1951 to '54, but was much later confirmed to be an Earth-1 character. The fact that Superboy, also clearly retconned as an Earth-1 character, had first appeared in 1945, in MORE FUN COMICS, was swept under the rug once the 'Earth-2 Superman' was first seen as a distinct character from the Earth-1 version, in 1969.

***

This is NOT a criticism of Brian's words, but an example of how fucked up it all is.

I get "civilians" asking me questions, i.e. a lapsed comic fan I've mentioned before. He asked me recently why there are TWO Superman in the current, post-Rebirth comics. I have no idea!

I also want to talk about another domino: DC VS MARVEL. Correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to that, the heroes all lived on a shared earth. It was cool. I was in awe of the Superman/Spider-Man crossover, it was exciting to know that they lived on the same earth; and when I revisited Lee/Ditko Spider-Man tales, or 1970s Superman stories, I thought about how they were all inhabiting the same reality. I even said to a friend, a few years ago, that when I was reading the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man tales, I thought about how, just a few hundred miles away, Superman was in the prime of his career whilst the web-slinger was starting out.

DC VS MARVEL, whilst enjoyable in some ways, did away with that. That, along with other crossovers, has often featured a LOT of semantics, i.e. how do we set up the fact these two universes will combine? That sucks the fun out of it; I prefer the idea of Superman simply flying to New York or Batman mentioning that he had always had a file on the Hulk in his Batcave!
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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 27 August 2017 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"For me, Crisis was a gift."

I agree with this. Prior to Crisis, which came out when I was around 9 or 10, I was collecting only a few DC titles (Flash, Firestorm, New Teen Titans) and the odd issues here and there of Superman, Batman, etc. For a kid justdipping their toes into the DC universe, the whole thing with the multiple versions of the characters and multiple Earths, imaginary stories, etc., it was all a bit daunting. What Crisis did was streamline things, expose me to other characters and books I wasn't familiar with and set things up for a more cohesive line. The problems that arose weren't the fault of Crisis itself but rather the post Crisis handling of the DC line. Some books got a hard reboot, some a soft reboot and others didn't seem affected at all. If the editorial staff had given the creative teams more clearly defined terms for which to handle the outcome of the event, it might have flowed better and not required Zero Hour to fix a few of the problems that cropped up over the years as a result.

As a reader, I still enjoy Crisis and appreciate what they were trying to do with it.

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