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Topic: Did CRISIS ruin the Industry? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 02 September 2017 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

ITEM: Adam S., the Hulk fought Magneto in Champions #16.

ITEM: I would be delighted to see some new match ups in the old super hero style, i.e., the threat is an obvious one - a bank robbery, a kidnapping, evil technology, etc. Subtle and pseudo realistic storylines are okay in their measure... but too many are just as bad as too much of ANY single story, really. Comics are fast; they need changing stories to keep interesting.

ITEM: Even with those types of stories... I don't think today's writers could it. Too many "one-and-done" or two-parters. Not nearly enough for the TPB (because, y'know, just collections of non-associated stories has EVER worked in this history of comics /sarcasm off), And I fear that too many current readers just couldn't make the transition away from their crossovers or intricate and overly complicated plots.

ITEM: Selecting Superman as a single example... he can be challenged either brains (Luthor) or brawn (Bizarro). But when the stories start focusing on the villains and supporting characters, then continuity becomes the uncaring master and editor. Throw in those goddamned crossovers, and it's hard to actually get a story for Superman IN HIS OWN BOOKS. That certainly seemed to be the case in the 90s

ITEM: Mr. Byrne, your point is excellent. If an EVENT occurs, it must happen at a time; it must affect everything about a hero; and it must be referred to fairly constantly (even if unacceptably overblown, e.g., the death of Phoenix.) Stories, on the other and, just happen; and if something new occurs, or a change happens, that is just part of a story - then so be it (e.g., Barry Allen might get a different job, or Peter Parker becoming a salaried employee of the Daily Bugle instead of a freelancer.) But changes don't sell comics anymore... GROUNDBREAKING EARTH-SHATTERING EVENTS (tm) are now required to push sales (with increasing cases of diminishing returns... especially because there just aren't GBE-SE (tm) that are any good.)

I'm afraid I still think it's too late for comics. There's no way to revitalize an audience that expects one type of story, nor to attract new readers in time to salvage a title (i.e., old readers skip out... new readers skip in. That timing won't support a title, I think.)
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 02 September 2017 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Eric -- DC has been doing a lot of "one-and-done" and two-parters lately, to their credit. Maybe the editors and writers have learned something. 

Also -- can't say I ever read CHAMPIONS #16. How'd that particular fight go? 


Edited by Adam Schulman on 02 September 2017 at 5:43pm
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 03 September 2017 at 5:31am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Doom lost.

Let's see if I can make this brief... no, I can't.
SUPER VILLAIN TEAM-UP 14 (with an entirely AWESOME John Byrne cover) - Dr. Doom releases a gas that lets him take over the minds of everybody.  (Once again, Dr. Doom  tried to take over the world... and succeeded.) And then to prove what a froopy dude he was, after Doom sicced the Avengers on Magneto, he let Magneto and one lackey of M's choosing go free to provide Doom a challenge. That ally was the Beast ("the weakest of the Avengers!" Magneto thinks, flying away from, among others, Yellowjacket and the Wasp... but the story, the story!)

In searching for allies, the Beast suggests the FF, the X-Men (neither of whom are home, of course), and finally his old pals Angel and Iceman, out west in the Champions.

Okay, to try to sum up... Magneto and the Beast engage with the Champions, Doom summons the Hulk because overkill, Hercules gets involved fighting the Hulk, Doom commands the Champs to KILL Magneto, and all but Ghost Rider do so (see, Ghost Rider doesn't breathe, so he didn't inhale Doom's airborne formula... he just thought they were being attacked by Magneto). G.R. uses soul fire on Doom's filtered mask, forcing him to remove it... and falling prey to his own command. The effect thus has no one to command it, everything wears off, and everybody goes home.

ITEM: This was done in the 70s, and as it happens, in two books about to be cancelled. Were it done in the last fifteen years, it would have been a year long crossover event with spin-off series, more heroes and villains fighting each others, and- oh God, I'm making myself sick. Instead this Avengers-Champions crossover (which was one Wolverine away from involving the X-Men as well) was a quiet little non-story.

ITEM: Doom's formula never wore off. Once he regained his mind, he could still take control of the world. But he DIDN'T, and this point has never been used by a continuity-hungry neo-writer... thank Odin!
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 03 September 2017 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I can't see luring one big name to the company every couple of years having the same impact as getting everyone all at once

I wonder who is a big name these days? Bendis going to DC to write Batman may get Bendis fans excited but I don't think his appeal is as universal as the comics media thinks it is. JRjr went to DC and has been given high profile work but while he's my favorite active artist, I don't think today's fans think of that as a big deal. Marvel uses all of it's big name artists on events or the first few issues of a new book launch but there's no established two or three-year run on a popular title for an artist to make their name on. Marvel especially doesn't believe in the ability of an artist to "move the needle" on sales. There are no Byrnes, Millers, Perezes, or any other big name artists who built their names at a company to get excited about going to the competition. 
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 03 September 2017 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Sincere thanks, Eric, for the recap of an obscure '70s Marvel story I never read (there are many of those!).

Seems like the Hulk and Magneto never fought each other directly in that story. I'd still want to see that, mainly because I don't think there's much either could do to defeat the other. Long fight, ends in a draw.
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 03 September 2017 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Immediate Post-Crisis DC was the era that made me a comic book fan (JB's Superman, Frank Miller's Batman, George Perez's WW, etc.), and I love those runs with all my heart.

While I don't like the Crisis series itself and a lot of what has happened afterwards, DC did need a "fresh start" and, for me, it was a successful one.

It was the only era (1985-90, give or take) that DC was perceived as "cooler" than Marvel, and I'll always be a bigger DC fan because of it (although I ultimately feel "company wars" are absurd and obviously love a lot of Marvel stuff).

But I don't think continuity or stupid rules had anything to do with it, but the most obvious and tried and tested move in commercial art history: bring the best talent in, let them do their thing.




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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 04 September 2017 at 2:33am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Immediate Post-Crisis DC was the era that made me a comic book fan (JB's Superman, Frank Miller's Batman, George Perez's WW, etc.), and I love those runs with all my heart.

***

Those are my thoughts, too. 

But historically speaking, it was a domino. In the early 2000s, I was getting a lot of questions from "civilians" about what INFINITE CRISIS was - and how this and that event tied into the original CRISIS. I could not answer them because I didn't know.

Someone told me I could have checked Wikipedia. But comic reading shouldn't involve homework. It's one thing to check Wikipedia (or other sites) to check out the ending of a film you've forgotten about, but who wants to check countless pages pertaining to various CRISIS events?
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 04 September 2017 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

 Robbie Parry wrote:
But comic reading shouldn't involve homework


True, but it's not unreasonable to expect you to read the book itself to be able to explain it to others. Everything you needed to understand Infinite Crisis' ties to Crisis was in the book.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 04 September 2017 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Fair point, Dave. :)

I feel that quite a bit of entertainment has been interested more in navel-gazing and looking back - whereas I'd rather they looked forward.

I mean, it's been fifteen years since we had any STAR TREK that wasn't a prequel (2002, NEMESIS). Since that time, we've had a reboot-prequel and we're going to be seeing a pre-TOS series via Netflix.

DC spent far too much time, in my opinion, looking back to CRISIS. I'd rather they looked forward.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 04 September 2017 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

That pre-TOS series will probably bomb here in the .U.S, though. It's not through Netflix here, and CBS' streaming service isn't worth paying for when it only has two new shows and a ton of re-runs.

DC just needs to quit doing reboots every so often. It gets old real quick, and some properties still haven't really recovered from CRISIS. Legion of Super-Heroes just hasn't been the same since, and the incarnations that followed all pale in comparison to the original.




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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 04 September 2017 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

DC just needs to quit doing reboots every so often. 

***

They're rebooting more than I reboot my laptop!

Okay. slight exaggeration.

There must be new stories to tell. Old characters to rediscover. I read once about how the Riddler didn't appear in a comic between 1948 and 1965. Wow. There must be characters, heroes and villains alike, who are ripe for rediscovery; there must be new characters that can be created; and there must be new battles that we can see. 
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 04 September 2017 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I think the only way to do a "clean" reboot is to change formats.

I loved the old POWERMAN AND IRON FIST comics, but I've long felt that the characters would be best served by being "plainclothes" and maybe not tied to the "blaxploitation" of the early LUKE CAGE comics or some of the missteps with Danny Rand through the decades.  BAMM--the TV shows (including the DEFENDERS mini-series) were really enjoyable for me!

BUT I also would have been happy with a B&W magazine!  More realistic artwork and story lines--and without even mentioning Luke marrying Jessica Jones or having a baby!  The old HULK magazines were fun in a way that the comic couldn't be.

If DC just cancelled their entire line and then quietly brought the characters back in their iconic forms (trunks and all!) in a slightly larger "magazine" format and never mentioned CRISIS or NEW 52 ever again, I would be happy.

There's just something about doing a company-wide "reboot" a month later in the same format with the same writers and artists that invites continually referencing the things you just wiped out of existence.  There's no real "break."


Edited by Eric Jansen on 04 September 2017 at 11:06pm
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