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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 3:27am | IP Logged | 1
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Robbie has a point about us falling into the same trap of trying to sort DC's history into Earth 1 and Earth 2 timelines.
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I think we should just have adopted the "James Bond approach": all the stories take place NOW!
There's a 1960s coverdate on a newspaper in one film (GOLDFINGER, I think). But something like GOLDENEYE clearly took place in the 90s. It doesn't matter. Each adventure is taking place NOW.
The same approach should apply to comics. Yes, some pedantic people might ask why Batman can be referring to a 60s US President and then be talking about the millennium bug. But who cares?! Topical references are unavoidable.
You just have to enjoy things. I mean, I was taken aback when one of the Basil Rathbones Holmes films featured him and Watson active during WWII. But you move on and enjoy it.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 4:00am | IP Logged | 2
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See? I went the other way. I consider the Sean Connery version to be the "Earth 2" (or similar) James Bond, while the Pierce Brosnan Bond was on "Earth 1"! (And then the debate goes to where the other versions fit in.) Am I being an obsessive fanboy when I let these thoughts swirl in my head? No, because I just happen to enjoy a present-day Bond AND a Cold War Bond! I'm having my cake and eating it too. (Just as I did with a modern Batman AND a Batman who started in the 30's, married Catwoman, and became father to the very cool Huntress!)
Alternatively, I feel sorry for the Bond fans who struggle trying to mesh all the different versions into one cohesive whole, especially when the Daniel Craig version is so obviously a reboot.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 5:28am | IP Logged | 3
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It's fine to live in the "Now" and just to enjoy whatever version of James Bond or Batman is being offered Now. The problem with that is that the more you enjoy these, the more you delve into the character and find older work. If a Daniel Craig Bond fan discovers the Sean Connery movies for the first time, he might love those even better, likewise with different versions of Batman. The problem with enjoying different eras of a character though is that discrepancies arise. The human brain likes a solution or explanation for discrepancies. If you don't go for "Yeah, there was a Cold War Bond on one Earth, while there's a modern Bond who just started fairly recently on another Earth" (or whatever you want to call your different "planes of fictional reality"), then the human brain starts to come up with other ideas like: (1) "James Bond" is just a title like "007" and also passed down through the decades to totally different agents, or (2) he's a Time Lord. These are both dumb, but both have been argued. You might say "He's a fictional character--no different than Scooby Doo or the Simpsons--get over it!" And I say the easiest, simplest way for me (or others) to get over it is to take a microsecond out of my brain's day to say "Two Bonds--Two Earths."
What CRISIS did was take that option away from me and the rest of their readership. They made Golden Age Batman (and his daughter) no longer exist! They made all the Silver Age stories of Superman no longer exist. The New 52 took away all the early adventures of the Justice League of America and made them no longer exist. No Kanjar Ro or Despero, now Cyborg was a founding member and they fought Darkseid--making all of Jack Kirby's 4th World stories no longer exist! And it looks like Batman never had blue trunks or a yellow oval--making all the Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams Batman classics no longer exist!
I tell you, if your stories are going to supplant somebody else's, you damn well make sure that your work is better than theirs. And nobody working today is better than Kirby, Adams, or Curt Swan.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 01 September 2017 at 5:30am
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 5:48am | IP Logged | 4
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The human brain likes a solution or explanation for discrepancies.
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That's fine (each to their own), it's just not for me. I'd rather just accept the premise of whatever I am enjoying at that moment.
I believe you can have history without the need for multiple earths. Some of the history in MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE (comics and cartoons) doesn't exactly stand up to scrutiny, if one is inclined to scrutinize, but I just go along for the ride.
If others want to do it differently, Eric, that's fine, too, but the problem there is that the likes of DC will never be able to cater to the needs of every fan.
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Andrew Saxon
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2016
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 5:57am | IP Logged | 5
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Alternatively, I feel sorry for the Bond fans who struggle trying to mesh all the different versions into one cohesive whole...
Bond movies were never overly worried about continuity, not even in ye olden days. Bond and Blofeld met face to face in You Only Live Twice and yet in the very next movie, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Blofeld does not recognise Bond straight away (the two characters were being played by different actors but that doesn't explain the discrepancy within the fiction of it all). Does it really matter? That's for the viewer to decide - it certainly struck me as odd because the first time I saw those movies I saw them back to back as a double bill, though it didn't spoil my enjoyment any. Are the ones who decide it does matter anal fanboys? I don't know and I don't care to criticise them for it, after all, someone not into comics or Science Fiction might look at this board and regard all of us as anal fanboys. Not trying to come off as saintly (I wouldn't dare!), but I can't help but wonder if there isn't an element of pot calling the kettle black in some of this discussion. What are we if not fan boys? Being a professional, our illustrious host has a special perspective, but I wonder what terrible things some of the rest of us might do if put in a position of power within The Biz - and all because we care a wee bit too much. The road to hell, good intentions and all that.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 6:10am | IP Logged | 6
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All I can say - and I've done many topics about it - is that if I were in a position of power, I'd rather look forward and give people new encounters. I am sure there are still new stories to be told.
Have the Fantastic Four fought Juggernaut? Have the Teen Titans ever battled Gorilla Grodd? Has Wonder Woman ever teamed with Man-Bat? There seem to be so many stories left to tell. I'd rather see that than have a CRISIS event (any CRISIS event) revisited.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 7
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On that we agree!
--which goes back to my original point! If not for CRISIS in the first place, we wouldn't have had to deal with the ZERO HOUR, INFINITE CRISIS, and FLASHPOINT "fix-its"! (Or the Marvel, Image, Valiant, etc. versions of CRISIS!) And possibly not even movie debacles like FANT4STIC and AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 1 & 2.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 01 September 2017 at 8:57am
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Rick Whiting
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 8
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It used to be just the nutballs out on the fringe who complained about characters not aging. Sadly, as the marketplace has shrunk, it has been those on the fringe who have continued to be loyal, and thus the fringe has moved closer to the center.
_______________________________
And some of those fans on the fringe become pros and we end up with crap like Blade's adventures in Tomb of Dracula actually taking place in the 70's and the original Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD stories actually taking place in the 60's instead of "a while ago" or "several years ago". And don't get me started on when one writer took Blade's date of birth from an issue of Marvel Preview (which was published in the 1970's) as literally being set in stone and thus took upon himself to explain why Blade was still young. Said writer didn't seem to understand that Blade's date of birth in that issue was never meant to be taken literally.
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Adam Schulman
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| Posted: 01 September 2017 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 9
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Have the Fantastic Four fought Juggernaut? Have the Teen Titans ever battled Gorilla Grodd? Has Wonder Woman ever teamed with Man-Bat? There seem to be so many stories left to tell.
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Mister Fantastic versus the Leader might make for a good story. (Of course the rest of the FF would be involved too.)
The Hulk versus Magneto, too. I don't think Magneto could do much to him. The master of magnetism, who can control all metals? So what -- the Hulk throws a lot of trees at him.
Edited by Adam Schulman on 01 September 2017 at 8:03pm
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Warren Scott
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| Posted: 02 September 2017 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 10
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Eric J., one way to deal with all of the reboots is to say the characters and storylines of the New 52 are on a new earth. That explains the discrepancies and it means the old versions still exist (although mostly in the back issue boxes and our heads).
But I think the problem is too much time is devoted to rebooting everything now. The comics companies expect everyone to get excited about it and for it to draw new fans. And I'm not sure it's working. As Robbie said, there are plenty of new stories to tell without resorting to "re-imagining" every character's origin story.
This conversation has led me to consider the new Star Trek films, but I'm going to start a new thread for it if anyone cares to join me.
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 02 September 2017 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 11
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As Robbie said, there are plenty of new stories to tell without resorting to "re-imagining" every character's origin story.
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It's all subjective, but here's how I feel: if someone told me they were doing a Fantastic Four VS Juggernaut graphic novel, well here's my money; if, however, someone announces that there is going to be a "Superman: Origin Tale #1", then it would not interest me.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 02 September 2017 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 12
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Superman's origin changed many times over the decades. When I started reading the comics, it was Kal-El the toddler who was launched to Earth, already wearing a variant of his costume. A far cry from the newborn infant launched in the, ahem, original orign.Thing is, none of those changes happened as EVENTS. When Superman developed x-ray vision, it was simply there, without comment. When he started flying, no explanation was given. When did the EVENTS start? It might have been with the "Kryptonite Nevermore" story, which ran across several issues and was a Big Deal. A few years earlier it would probably have been tossed off in a couple of panels.* ________________________ * That story underscored the anal retentiveness that was creeping into DC. When it is found that Superman is no longer vulnerable to kryptonite, a rejoicing Jimmy Olsen declares Superman is now only vulnerable to magic. It was a point that was completely unnecessary in the scene, but which would have driven fanboys crazy had it not been mentioned. (AND it served to emphasize the popular misconception that Superman has a special vulnerability to magic, instead of just being vulnerable like everyone else!)
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