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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 02 April 2017 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | 1
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Uncanny X-Men is the 60th best selling title for February? Things are tough all over for Marvel. They have more problems other than with "diversity". https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/36913/top-300-comics- actual-february-2017
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2230
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| Posted: 02 April 2017 at 11:51pm | IP Logged | 2
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You're totally right, Stephen. They don't get it, they haven't "gotten" it for years. The simply don't recognize what "new" is. They keep doing variations of the same thing over and over somehow expecting different results.
I agree with the comments from the co-creator of Ms Marvel. I find it's not unusual for creators to feel that way. I suppose the higher up the company hierarchy you go, the more the IP becomes a Property and the less it's Art. If that's the case, then I think it not surprising they'd be more likely to stab the symptoms of their problems by thinking they're the cause.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 12:04am | IP Logged | 3
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Apparently the EIC of Marvel thinks artists don't sell books.
There are fewer artists that impact sales than there are writers, Alonso said, and they’re harder to promote. "It's harder to pop artists these days," he said. "There is no apparatus out there. There is no Wizard Magazine out there that told you who the hot top 10 were. We don't have that anymore. We can hype our artists all we want, but I don't know if we know how many artists, besides maybe McNiven and Coipel, absolutely move the needle on anything to be drawn.
I think my buddies and I had a pretty good idea who the "hot artists" were before there was a Wizard Top 10. And I'd think artists are easier to "pop" than a writer. Promo materials feature art. Covers are art driven. Artists actually have something they can offer fans: art in the form of sketches and commissions. No offense to writers, but comics are a visual medium. If an artist is doing his job right, the story is there without words. Many a poor story has been saved by great art.
Edited by Mike Norris on 03 April 2017 at 12:04am
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 4:11am | IP Logged | 4
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" That was difficult for us because we had a lot of fresh, new, exciting ideas that we were trying to get out and nothing new really worked."
Really? Stipulating that I'm not reading any new Marvel books with ANY sort of regularity... I don't hear about stories at all any more. The Coming of Galactus... the Kree-Skrull War... the Dark Phoenix saga... Born Again... Armor Wars... the Secret Empire... I know these stories.
But now, it seems very much that Marvel is pushing diverse replacement characters, and writers or artists; and for the past couple decades, pushing their "Big Crossover Event (tm)".
Those aren't ideas; those are gimmicks. In the end, the "hot" ideas fail, and it's time to create stories that people want to read. I don't care about a Swedish Black Panther... if the stories are good, I'll get 'em. If not, T'Challa's long lost cousin T'Sven isn't going to get me to buy the books.
As for diversity - I don't care, but I DO care that Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, etc. aren't the characters any more. That seems to me to be a flinging crap against the wall method. Yes, it works occasionally... but again, you have to sell the STORIES, not the CHARACTERS. Or you run into problems, as Marvel obviously has.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 4:24am | IP Logged | 5
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One more time: Nobody ever saw a brand new book on the stands and thought "That looks well written!"
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2364
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 6:00am | IP Logged | 6
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So, it used to be artists and original characters that were the driving force in comics--that sold a lot. Now, it's the writers and legacy characters that are the stars of comics--that aren't selling.
I'm sure it seems more "intellectual" for writers to have replaced artists as the "star talent"--except for the fact that so many of the modern writers think comics and heroes are beneath them and are all about deconstruction and tearing down rather than building up.
Why is it so clear to so many of us but the powers that be are clueless?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 7
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Many writers like to perpetuate the myth that they, and they alone, have to "face the blank page." Some even have undisguised contempt for those who are "just the artists."(A lot of writers expressed their displeasure when I, working as a writer with artists other than myself, would list the artists names first in the credits!)
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 8
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I think Marvel needs to look at their output and come to
some serious realizations.
-diversity is great, but not at the expense of what has
made your company work for the better part of 50 years
-Maybe the problem with promoting artists is partially due
to a diluted talent pool. Marvel has so many titles it's
insane how much product they output. How many artists can
draw pretty pictures and how many can really tell a story.
Maybe another "Nuff Said" month would help separate the
wheat from the chaff.
I think there are also really good graphic storytellers
who get held back by controlling writers. Full script is
many times necessary, but I've heard and read stories of
writers giving screen direction and in some cases
thumbnails. I could understand if the artist was new and
the writer was know for thinking visually. But I
personally would feel like I was insulting a John Byrne or
George Perez if I was telling them how to graphically tell
a story within my script or heaven forbid, thumbnails.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 9
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"Well. this won't sell in the South!"That was a phrase I heard quite often in my early days at Marvel. People were well aware that not ALL our customers were East and West Coast Liberals. Every time we featured a Black character on a cover, sales would dip In those days, sales were strong enough we could ignore such things -- hence that phrase -- but now? One man's diversity is another's reason not to buy a book. And that's not going to change any time soon.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7785
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 10
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Diversity is not the problem here. I'm Ok with women heroes, I'm ok with heroes who are not white American. The problem is, I want those heroes alongside the heroes I grew up with, not instead of.
That there, is the problem.
Alongside heroes not being very heroic, constant mega events that ship late, thereby having the comics set after their last issue be released first, etc etc etc
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15950
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 11
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One crossover event per year max.Restore the core characters. Steve Rogers as Cap, Tony Stark Iron Man. Peter Parker as Spider-Man. Cull the number of titles. Re-adopt the Marvel method. Have covers communicate major thrust of the story within. Encourage diversity but not by diminishing, excluding or replacing the core characters, which are the flagships on which the company is built. Try them out as guest-stars. Build familiarity with the new characters. If they prove popular, give them their own title.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 03 April 2017 at 11:24am | IP Logged | 12
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Remember when heroes meeting other heroes was called a "guest appearance" that happened in one issue and was SPECIAL?
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Topic Closed)
