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Mario Ribeiro Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2016 Location: Brazil Posts: 474
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Posted: 19 November 2016 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 1
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Oh, okay, Eric, I didn't know they stopped providing texts, thanks, that was stupid of them.
About random issues, yeah, I understand the money factor. But by now we all know how they are published, and anyway since at least 1961 superhero comics are better when inserted in their proper context. A random issue of Lee-Kirby's Thor, or Simonson's Thor may be as impenetrable to a civilian as last issue.
Which brings us to working hard for our entertainment. I can think of a few scenarios in which one didn't have to work hard to enter this world, but I sure did. I didn't even know who the X-Men were before I started reading Marvel comics. Didn't know their names, their powers, anything! No cartoons, no movies, no internet, and figuring it all out was part of the fun. Most of us recognize that aspect right here when we criticize all those reboots. It's not too hard, because it's comics, even if sometimes we get it wrong (I once wondered if Wolverine was also a telepath because he knew what a Hellfire Club guard was thinking).
And Thor as a woman is the kind of information that is provided by the cover, just accept it. What may bother people is how a woman became Thor, who are all those supporting characters and what are the relationships between everybody. Exactly the kind of stuff any new reader ever had to figure out.
I'm not defending new comics and, yes, a lot of this stuff sounds stupid to me (without reading them). But that's in part because I have read all this before. I just hope that, for a new reader, the current stuff is as magical and exciting as the old stuff was to me 25 years ago. I can imagine how the stuff I loved back then might have looked stupid to people who stopped reading comics in the sixties.
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 19 November 2016 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 2
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Marvel still has the text recap pages in every issue, for what it's worth. Pretty much functions the same as the "previously on..." cold open that you see on every serialized TV show right now. It brings you up to speed quickly if you missed an episode or if you're just starting out. The DC Rebirth books are all pretty early on in their runs, and none that I've read so far are too continuity-heavy for a casual or lapsed reader to pick up any given issue.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 3
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Great mix of views here. Much food for thought. Thanks.
I think one difference I've noticed is the recaps/boxes in classic issues, i.e. if Man-Bat showed up in a classic comic, there'd be a box/description about Langstrom, the serum, his change, etc. And in my head, it'd be a, 'Okay, got it.'
Now, characters show up and I have no clue. Not always, mind. Picked up a Harley Quinn comic recently, the one where she led a team. There was a box/intro for the six members of her team. That helped. And it's all I wanted.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 4
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If your friend last picked up a Thor comic during the Simonson run, he might as well stay away. THOR really doesn't get much better than that.This is my understanding of the Marvel Universe, granted. It's probably six months behind because I refuse to read Marvel anymore, but I do try to keep up with what going on:
-The X-Men are gone because Ike Perelmutter is mad at Fox. -The Inhumans are replacing the X-Men. -The FF is gone because Ike Perelmutter is mad at Fox -Steve Rogers is A Captain America but is a sleeper Hydra Agent. -The other Captain America is Sam Wilson so we have racial diversity. -Iron MAN is now a young back girl so we can have racial and gender diversity. -Thor is Jane Foster so we can have gender diversity -The Hulk is now an Asian man so we can have cultural diversity. -Nick Fury is dead and replace by his racially mixed son so we can have racial diversity. -Spider-Man (Peter Parker) is a corporate mogul so the main Spider-Man is Miles Morales. So we can have racial diversity.
Did I miss anything?
Edited by Stephen Churay on 20 November 2016 at 1:30pm
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 5
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I realize how much my previous post makes me sound, but I swear I'm not a racist, sexist pig. It's just a LOT of shitting on existing characters. IT would be nice if they created that many new diverse characters, adding to the existing ones, without screwing over 50 years of Marvel.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14852
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 6
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Marvel officially ended the Marvel Universe in 2015. What exists now is akin to Silver Age DC if they immediately rushed to CRISIS OF INFINITE EARTHS.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 7
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Sorry, it still doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water.
What I see, is Marvel scrambling to get new characters popular before the actors' contracts expire after the two part Avengers: Infinity War films end. Either that or you have a small group of over zealous SJW's running the show over there.
Getting this back to Thor, a case could be made for JMS' run on the book. I wouldn't personally say it's Thor at its best, but it was a solid read, as was the Marvel Now stories that came out during the second film, which was drawn by Esad Ribic and Ron Garney. After that I left the book. Maybe what's being published now makes for good reading, but, to me, it's not Thor.
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 20 November 2016 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 8
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Marvel and DC are doing a lot of character-swapping these days, sure, but is it really all that different than what we saw at the start of the Silver Age? New Flash, new Green Lantern, new Atom, new Hawkman, new Human Torch, new Vision, big changes for Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman...there would have been a lot of griping on the 1950s internet, too, I guess.
One difference here is that the older characters aren't necessarily being retired as the new versions are rolled out. And it makes sense that a more diverse audience for comics would get a more diverse cast of characters for the reboots. Why introduce a carbon copy of Hal Jordan when you're rolling out a new Green Lantern for Earth? Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams knew that 45 years ago. And Denny O'Neil knew that 30-something years ago when he brought in James Rhodes as the new Iron Man. There are fewer original model Marvel characters on the stands right now than usual, but we've got about 60 years' worth of precedent for shaking up the status quo from time to time.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 21 November 2016 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 9
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I would agree but you have to remember the context of how it happened then, compared to how it's happening now.
The Silver Age replacements came after their Golden Age namesakes hadn't been published in almost a decade. Outside of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, superhero comics were dead.
Marvel of today is doing this swap at a time when they have, by far, the greatest character recognition, across the globe, in the history of the company.
That's bad business. YOU alienate lasted readers, because they have nothing really familiar to grab on to. YOU also alienate new readers because they don't see in the books what's currently branded on the big screen; or small screen.
They only reason to do this, that I can see, is to take the hit now, so they will have these new versions in place, when the current batch of actors are done. THEY question becomes, How much readership is left in four years, when this takes place?
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 21 November 2016 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 10
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That's bad business. YOU alienate lasted readers, because they have nothing really familiar to grab on to.
Really? Welcoming women and minority readers by the tens of thousands is bad business? The old readers are still around, but they've got some company now. If people my age are spending a little less money on monthly Marvel and DC Comics but their books are reaching a new audience, that's a good thing. They're still getting my money through movie tickets, DVDs, collected editions, merchandise for my kid, and any number of other things, but I'm seeing a lot more kids and a lot more women and a lot more color at my local comic shop.
And I'm enjoying a lot of the new characters and books, too. Power Man and Iron Fist is one of the best books going from any publisher right now. Hellcat's terrific. My Muslim friends love the new Ms. Marvel and are thrilled that they can share that book with their daughters.
I'm bummed out that I can't buy a Fantastic Four comic right now, but they'd been off my radar for about a decade anyway, so I'm surprisingly okay with keeping them on the shelf until someone comes along with a really compelling reason to tell more stories other than "we've got a copyright to protect." Life goes on.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 21 November 2016 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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Stephen Churay wrote:
What I see, is Marvel scrambling to get new characters popular before the actors' contracts expire after the two part Avengers: Infinity War films end. Either that or you have a small group of over zealous SJW's running the show over there. |
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When someone pulls out the "SJW" trope I tend to think they've lost any point they were trying to make.
Marvel Studio's is pretty much it's own thing. Outside of mining the comics IP they don't care what the publishing arm or the TV arm does. They've become the dog and comics are the tail. They don't seem interested in making movies with Jane Thor, Falcon America or Riri Iron Man. They'll probably recast before they go that route.
Stephen Churay wrote:
The Silver Age replacements came after their Golden Age namesakes hadn't been published in almost a decade. Outside of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, superhero comics were dead. |
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Super Hero comics weren't quite dead in that time
Captain Comet first appeared in Strange Adventure #9, 1951
The Martian Manhunter's first appearance was in Detective Comics #225, 1955.
Marvel Boy's first appearance is Marvel Boy #1 1950
I think they were trying reinvent Super-Heroes using the popular SF framework of the time Which also influenced the approach in the Silver Age.
There were only five years between the GA Flash's last appearance (All-Star Comics #57,1951) and the first appearance of the SA Flash (Showcase # 4. 1956)
There are seven years between the last appearance of the GA Human Torch ( Human Torch #32, 1954) and the first appearance of the SA Human Torch ( Fantastic Four #1, 1961) The Torch, along with Cap and Namor, were part of a mid 1950's revival attempt after their books ended in 1949.
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Michael Casselman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1246
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Posted: 21 November 2016 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 12
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"Only" five to seven years was nearly a generation worth of readers back then.
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