Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 5 Next >>
Topic: Favorite Origins (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2366
Posted: 14 August 2016 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 1  

The TV Hulk was a lot lower-powered than the comic Hulk (somewhere between Luke Cage and Spider-Man levels?), so a different origin made sense--the old "scientist makes a mistake in the lab" idea worked.  The comic book Hulk was so powerful, it was almost as if the Gamma Bomb had become a living, breathing thing, wreaking destruction wherever he roamed.  (Somewhat the same idea as Godzilla--was this monster that trampled cities a metaphor for the atomic bombs that leveled Hiroshima and Nagasaki?)

What didn't make sense was the 2003 HULK movie giving him the comic-level power, but pretty much the low-level TV origin.  (The 2008 INCREDIBLE HULK, which is part of the Cinematic Universe, is a bit unclear with how much they were sticking with the 2003 origin.)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2366
Posted: 14 August 2016 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 2  

It's very interesting how different the (big) DC and Marvel origins are.  Marvel is always something (usually radioactive) happens to a regular person, while the DC people are often fated from birth (or early childhood) to be the icons they are.  Even the Flash/Barry Allen (whose origin was perhaps the most "Marvel-like" until Firestorm!) got retrofitted to childhood with his mother's murder and father going to jail for it (and it being caused by Reverse-Flash--on TV at least).

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, now the Flash (Barry Allen), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan, "born without fear" leading to his interstellar destiny), Aquaman, Hawkman (either origin!), even Green Arrow (stranded in young adulthood--certainly not an instantaneous accident), Dr. Fate, Captain Marvel/Shazam, and many more--all from childhood or lifelong trajectory.

On the other hand, the Marvel characters are mostly regular people that have a moment that changes their lives forever--the Fantastic Four (Johnny and Sue were definitely regular people, even Ben was pretty ordinary), Spider-Man, Daredevil (the only young kid in the group, retroactively given years of training by Frank Miller later--somewhat of a DC/Marvel mix), the Hulk, Iron Man's explosion injury, Thor (the original origin--not an accident, but still a moment), Captain America (serum AND rays), and a thousand other villains and heroes...all experiencing a radioactive or chemical accident.  The great thing that Stan Lee gave a lot of these was the self-sacrificing aspect.

Bruce Banner was a hero before being irradiated (saving Rick Jones, unfortunately eliminated from all three TV and movie versions), young Matt Murdock saving that blind man and losing his sight, skinny Steve Rogers (pre-Stan Lee) willing to sacrifice his life to help his country, four non-astronauts flinging themselves into space could also be considered heroic (it would be in real life), Peter Parker learned his lesson before his origin was over.  The origins for Thor, Dr. Strange, and original X-Men are lacking these heroic undertones--and all those books were cancelled at one point or another, with the origins eliminated or often ignored.  Iron Man's origin wasn't great either, but the movie made it interesting--perhaps the movie version of Dr. Strange will do the same there.

Five best--
BATMAN
SUPERMAN
CAPTAIN AMERICA
THE HULK
DAREDEVIL
and the greatest of all-time is probably--
SPIDER-MAN
---because it's a full story, with a lesson learned, and drives the whole series that comes after.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 14 August 2016 at 4:24pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12717
Posted: 14 August 2016 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 3  

  • Superman
  • Batman
  • Captain America
  • The Fantastic Four
  • Spider-Man
(That's in chronological order)


Edited by Michael Penn on 14 August 2016 at 5:41pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 4  

@Eric Jansen - I'm not sure I entirely agree with your assessment of destiny vs normal people becoming super.

At DC, I think you're onto something. The "normal" heroes would include J'onn J'onzz, Hal Jordan, Oliver Queen, and Hawkman and Hawkgirl. I don't see them as especially unique (well, the Hols were somewhat so, but they were part of a squad of hawk police, so they were somewhat normal in their superior positions - ANY pair of Thanagarians could have been sent to Earth.)

With Marvel, some of the origins are indeed that of normal guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. But some of them were indeed exceptional.
* Bruce Banner was a nuclear physicist, putting him in the right place at the wrong time.
* Tony Stark was in Korea because he was the best weapons manufacturer the US had.
* Don Blake was destined to find Mjolnir again.
* Reed Richards was arguably the most brilliant scientists in the US at the time, and Ben Grimm was both a WW2 expert fighter pilot, and a test pilot of above average qualifications.
* Stephen Strange was an outstanding surgeon, collapsed spectacularly, and was still exceptional enough to find the Ancient One's sanctum - a trip through India wasn't exactly a ride to Central Park.

A couple of quirky exceptions include Peter Parker - while anyone could have been bitten by a radioactive spider, he was there specifically because he was a genius.

And the X-Men kind of had heroism thrust onto them, being exceptional without any endeavor on their part. (On the other hand, there quite a few mutant villains too, so I see your point about them.)

Now, Matt Murdock, Johnny and Sue Storm, Steve Rogers - yup, you're absolutely right. 

Interesting observation you made!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15953
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 5  

Five favourites in no particular order:

1. Daredevil. Nice and lean. Kid does a selfless act (the bravest thing I ever saw!), loses a sense, gains loads of others. I liked the additions made by Miller, with Stick teaching him to deal with his powers, though not necessarily the whole thing about DD and Elektra being part of a bigger conflict.
2. Superman. Surviving infant from a doomed planet found by kindly, childless couple, who discover he has great powers. Lots of good elements, still fairly simple. And how great was this scene from the 1978 movie? LINK 
3. Spider-Man. Great little morality tale. Humility vs ego, responsibility vs entitlement. With a nice sprinkling of guilt and familial love.
4. Captain America. I like the element where the secret of the super soldier formula dies with Professor Erskine, leaving Steve as the sole progeny of Project Rebirth. 
5. Batman. Once again, very simple. Kid driven to do amazing things over the years to try and redress the balance of his parents' murder. WIth a bat and an open window thrown into the mix.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17699
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 6  

Steve Rogers was so eager to serve his country that he was willing to be the
guinea pig in an experiment that could have left him dead. I'd say that makes
him exceptional.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 7  

Yes, the Marvel heroes were *all* exceptional. Lee cleverly gave them "feat of
clay" that perhaps the DC heroes of the period were lacking but they weren't
the hopelessly flawed characters we were subjected to during the "grim and
gritty" era.

Peter Parker is a scientific whiz. That's why he became Spider-Man. He wasn't
bitten by a radioactive spider while skipping school to catch a movie. He was
at a science exhibit. The first Raimi film even manages to remove this degree
of uniqueness by having Peter gain his powers at a field trip.

Steve Rogers, as Wallace pointed out, was inspired to volunteer to fight the
Nazis prior to Pearl Harbor! And when told he was too frail for service, he still
didn't give up.

I also agree with Peter that Daredevil's origin is nice and lean with a cool bit of
irony (brave kid saves blind man and is blinded in the process). How many of
us would act without thinking this way? Matt Murdock did, however.

Tangentially, I wish we could remove the ninja themes from Daredevil's origin. I
tend to think it's dated and is a bit of an anchor on the character. I'm
personally fine with Matt training himself and being, well, a "daredevil" (great
boxer and gymnast) than a ninja. I like the original Elektra before Miller altered
her origin in the 1990s and perhaps earlier (the flashback scene toward the
end of his 1st run). I liked Elektra as a simple bounty hunter (even assassin)
who was somewhat of a mirror image to Daredevil.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2366
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 8  

@Eric Sofer--"At DC, I think you're onto something. The "normal" heroes would include J'onn J'onzz, Hal Jordan, Oliver Queen, and Hawkman and Hawkgirl. I don't see them as especially unique"

Oh, I really have to disagree here.  J'onn J'onzz and the Hawks are definitely not normal!  Any alien is by definition not a "normal person"!  Even Hal Jordan being "Born without Fear" sets him apart from the majority of humanity.  And, as I said, Oliver Queen may not have had anything special from birth, but his origin still spanned a number of years and was not an instantaneous change in biology like the Flash or the main Marvel heroes.

My basic point was that for the Marvel heroes, their more or less normal lives change in an instant, while the DC heroes, for the most part, take years (sometimes from birth) to develop into their heroic selves.  J'onn J'onzz and the Hawks are aliens from birth.  (Even if you take the Hawks' Egyptian reincarnation origin, which DC seems to have fallen back on in recent years, they're still different from birth--even going back thousands of years.)

I'm going from the perspective of the reader, not what the characters themselves might think.

And, yes, the Marvel characters turn out to be unique individuals, but that's usually NOT essential to the origin stories!

Peter Parker is revealed to be a genius inventor of his webbing, etc., BUT he could have been any average kid when the spider bit him (and, in fact, the genius aspect was removed from the Sam Raimi movie trilogy and barely affected the presentation at all; the general public probably has no clue that Parker is a genius).

Bruce Banner has been revealed to be an all-around super-genius, but in that first origin story, he could have been ANY "regular" scientist or bomb expert.

Again, Tony Stark COULD have been any munitions expert for the origin.  Later stories make him a super-inventor.

The Fantastic Four COULD have been four astronauts (which still would make them normal people, just somewhat more interesting people) but it's notable how normal Stan Lee made them all (but, again, Reed has been turned into a super-genius).  (In contrast to Kirby's all-expert/he-man team for the Challengers of the Unknown.)

Matt Murdock and Steve Rogers were brave (but normal) young men whose heroic acts could have killed them but instead put them on the road to being iconic.  Both have been retrofitted to have received training afterwards, but the powers were there right from the life-changing self-sacrificing incidents.

Don Blake finding the hammer (again I'm looking at the original origin) WAS a very normal guy (even physically crippled) who found a magic artifact.  Very Golden Age-y origin, but still a moment changes everything.  We find he's special later, in a retrofit.

You can say that a heroic heart or a "worthy" spirit made these people "not normal" but, hopefully, those are qualities that any of us might have.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2366
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 9  

Let's reverse things for a moment--what are the WORST origins?  These are (in my opinion) very weak origins--

IRON MAN--No self-sacrificing moment like Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, or Steve Rogers.  And, apparently, Stark could have built the suit anytime--he just needed a gun at his head.  The movie version--which stuck to the comic origin greatly!--tweaked it just slightly to emphasize the heroic and emotional possibilities.  Barely changing anything, they made it work!

THOR--Finding a magic thing is fairly weak.  This might be the best of that type though--but Simonson eliminated Don Blake retroactively making this origin disposable.  (And dispose of it they did in the movies...even while keeping the "Whosoever is worthy..." legend.)

DR. STRANGE--Like Thor, Strange had more of a Golden Age or DC-ish origin.  Strange the surgeon is extremely unlikable and we don't really know why we should like him by the end of the story.  (By contrast, we LOVE Peter Parker by the end of his origin.  Maybe we even love Matt Murdock, Bruce Banner, and Steve Rogers after seeing their heroic, self-sacrificing origins.)

ANT-MAN--I wish the movie had started with Hank Pym as the "Man in the Ant Hill" and then had him transition into super-heroics, but they skipped Pym (as Ant-Man) altogether.  (I loved the flashbacks though!)  The comics never really gave us a cohesive origin or raison d'etre for Pym and Janet fighting crime.

X-MEN--Is there even an origin?  The NEW X-Men had the whole Krakoa thing and got off on a really good foot--THAT gave writers something to work with!

I don't think it's any coincidence that all of the above (except IRON MAN, though I feel he was on the cusp a few times) were cancelled at one point!  The origin is the foundation for a series--it gives the motive and reason for existence for a series.  A weak start will catch up to a series at some point.

(My apologies to the people in the thread who listed some of these origins as their favorites.  I just happen to disagree.)




Edited by Eric Jansen on 15 August 2016 at 5:27pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2366
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | 10  

Likewise, DC's five big guns--Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Barry Allen/the Flash, Hal Jordan/Green Lantern--all had origins that writers could really play off of.  (Though Hal and Barry were not originally given motivation for fighting crime/evil--and they both suffered for it.)

The second string had weaker origins and they all got cancelled fairly early, even though they are very iconic and could have lasted hundreds more issues if given stronger foundations.

AQUAMAN--His Golden Age origin (father scientifically gave him the ability to breathe underwater) was weak.  His Silver Age origin (lighthouse owner falls in love with a beautiful woman who came from the sea) had a certain beauty to it, but was unfortunately ruined ten different ways by the writers of the next thirty years.

HAWKMAN--The Thangarian aspect was great and a million things could have been done with it, but the emotion and motivation of some of Stan Lee's creations just weren't there.  (The Golden Age Egyptian reincarnation origin which has been revived in the comics in recent years and on TV is one note and makes for maybe one good six-issue mini-series.)

GREEN ARROW--His origin was lame ("I fell off a boat, then I had to learn how to feed myself"), but with a few tweaks (in a mini-series I never read and, to great effect, on the TV show) was made very effective!  (The island was--gasp--dangerous!  All fixed!)

THE ATOM--The origin might have made a good anthology story or something, but it completely lacks drive (like the Fantastic Four had), character motivation (why does he fight crime?), and a foundation that could inspire a hundred stories (like the Green Lantern Corps or Asgard, etc.).

J'ONN J'ONZZ--I'll round out the second string with him because he really is a strong and iconic character.  It's a shame he's been booted from the New 52 JLA comic and movie in favor of Cyborg.  (No plans for a Titans movie apparently.)  The pieces are all there, but they need to be pulled together properly.

Like they did with Green Arrow (and the Iron Man movie), I think the rest of these origins are fixable without changing them greatly.  They just need the right writer (and editorial and publishing environment) to mine them for all they're worth.

I can only imagine what Stan Lee and Ditko, Kirby, and Colan might have done with these!  (Can you picture Lee and Ditko on the Atom?  Lee and Colan on J'onn J'onzz and Green Arrow?  Kirby on Hawkman, and the Atom too?)


Edited by Eric Jansen on 15 August 2016 at 6:13pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 11  

  1. Batman- I like that he's inspired by pesonal tragedy to become someone who can prevent that tragedy from happening to someone else. 
  2. Captain America- At first glance it's instant power/wish fullfillment. But Steve's motivation moves it beyond that. He was willing to risk his life for his ideas and country.  
  3. Green Lantern-- I like the SF aspects plus magic ring. 
  4. Spider-man- Personal tragedy plus accidental powers. Two classic origin tropes in one. 
  5. Fantastic Four- Great use of the accidental powers trope. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5685
Posted: 15 August 2016 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 12  

I'd argue that Stephen Strange's origin arc is very heroic. He seeks the Ancient One for selfish reasons, then decides to pursue magic to selflessly help the man who would not help him!
Back to Top profile | search | www
 

<< Prev Page of 5 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login