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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | 1  

Well, before that you had EC Comics and
their horror stories. Many of those
weren't monsters or supernatural, but men
and women who had a beef with there
significant other, and brought about their
demise or their own, in trying.
That stuff is pretty dark.
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 2  

The "fans" actually voted for the darkness when they decided Robin must die back in '88.
These fans have been indulged since. 
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 3  

Well said, Brian Hague.  That should be an editorial somewhere.

Oops!  I forgot Michael Fleisher & Jim Aparo's THE SPECTRE series in ADVENTURE COMICS (1974-75)!  Now THAT was dark!

I understand the origin for that was that editor Joe Orlando got mugged and worked with Fleisher on the plots to really punish criminals in gruesome ways.  The horrible deaths might have been lifted from EC comics short stories years earlier, but here they were committed by a fairly mainstream super-hero.  So, here, the real-life trauma of a mugging led to the beginning of darkening for DC's otherwise kid-friendly line.

(Of course, Harlan Ellison--who can be dark himself--called Fleisher's novel CHASING HAIRY "the product of a sick mind" in a COMICS JOURNAL interview and also said the SPECTRE run was cancelled when DC "realized they had turned loose a lunatic on the world"...and got sued by Fleisher!)
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 4  

So, in a hilarious "twist," this month, we'll break Dumb Bunny of the Inferior Five's neck for her, on-panel! Ho-ho-ho!! Funny, right?
++++++++++++


Y'see, the fact that I can't tell whether this is a joke or something which could very well have happened underlines how wrong things have gone.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 5  

JOHN: Does it go all the way back to issue #4 of the Avengers when they 
found Captain America and we learned about Bucky's death? Was that the 
first "really dark" moment in modern superhero comics?

SER: I'd say no. Tragic backstory is a common trope in superhero fiction: 
Batman's parents, Superman's, well, entire planet. Captain America losing 
his partner in the war fit in that pattern, along with the death of Uncle Ben.

Gwen Stacy was a major change because she was a "civilian" and Peter's 
girlfriend. He failed to save her.

Even the Death of Phoenix, if it had been left along, fit the traditional heroic 
tropes of "hero makes noble sacrifice to save her teammates." How many 
feel-good movies end similarly? But the hero failing to save the love of his 
life... well, that's just a downer.
+++++++++

Here's the thing--I don't regret any of these stories. By and large, they were all well-done and touching. To cite but one example, Stan wasn't trying to be edgy or anything like that when he killed off Bucky. Yeah, he wasn't a fan of sidekicks, but he was still thinking of what was best for Cap as a character when he made that call. Bucky's death strengthened and deepened the character of Steve Rogers, and made him a better and more interesting for it.

The problem is always those who come after. The writers who want to have their own Death of Phoenix, etc. The ones who aren't thinking about what works organically for the characters and the stories so much as the potential for shock value and clickbait. That's what so much of it comes down to, now.


I maniintain that the death of Gwen Stacy and the subsequent two years of Peter Parker coping with it and getting over it was a story worth telling. The problem is all of the writers and fans who came after, and wouldn't let it go. After all, constantly referencing a dead girlfriend is a quick and lazy source for the illusion of drama. Same with Phoenix. And Elektra.

I suppose the same could be argued with Bucky, but the key difference is that the Silver Age reinvention of Captain America was BUILT UPON the death of Bucky, whereas Spider-Man and the X-Men had existed long before the deaths of Gwen and Phoenix. Cap's constant remembrances of Bucky didn't feel so much like an intrusion, as did the references to the others.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 10:32pm | IP Logged | 6  

Greg Kirkman wrote: "Y'see, the fact that I can't tell whether this is a joke or something which could very well have happened underlines how wrong things have gone."

Greg, Gorilla Grodd, Sam Simeon's uncle, snapped Angel O'Day's sister Dumb Bunny's neck by twisting her head completely around at the end of an issue in Phil Foglio's "Angel and the Ape" mini-series because... Continuity! And... Humor! 

I could just have easily cited Bizarro, you remember, funny Bizarro? punching Roy Lincoln's Human Bomb "until the pretty lights went out" or the use of Chemo as a chemical bomb to wipe out the city of Bludhaven in Infinite Crisis. Or any number of instances...

I did not mention Michael Fleischer's Spectre series because it really did not set any other dominoes in motion. The horror with which the readers and industry reacted to what were actually fairly tame EC-style demises showed that the super-hero industry really was not ready for such excesses at the time. It should also be noted that Fleischer had no use for continuity with the rest of the DC line, going so far as to have someone compare a bespectacled character to Clark Kent, who everyone knows is secretly Superman... In the Spectre's world, Superman was just a comic book character. The Fleischer/Aparo Spectre was a falling domino that really didn't hit any others, in part by design.

I'm with Greg on the idea of the initial stories being fine, and the subsequent, lesser works being more responsible for where we are today. Most of the examples I mentioned, the GL/GA stories, Miller's Daredevil, Moore's Swamp Thing, Dark Knight, are excellent (the Foglio story excepted especially) and I wouldn't want to see the industry without them. Unfortunately, like Gardner Fox's introduction of Earth-2, it wasn't that first domino that caused problems so much as it was all of the far, far less talented dominoes running into line afterwards, screaming, "Me too! Me too!" that brought about wreck and ruin. 

Fox brought about Earth-2 so the Golden Age Heroes could still have a place in the stories and yet be out of everyone's way at the same time. No company-wide "legacy" heroes on Fox's watch, although he did give us the altogether charming Zatanna, first of the legacy characters and the first major company-wide cross-title crossover as well. Again, something that worked fine at the time, but sagged noticeably under the weight of wannabes piling on top of it... 

Fox also gave us Earth-3, the villainous Earth, which was fine; Earth-A, a Johnny Thunder-created reality which erased itself at the end of the story, and sadly, his only real mis-step, Earth-Prime, "our" Earth. Once those were in play, everyone wanted to play the Parallel Earth game as well, to explain where the National Comics heroes had been all this time, and the Fawcett heroes, and one for why Bob Haney stories didn't seem to fit anywhere, and one for funny animals, and another one for the other set of funny animals those same creators made up... It got old fast, and it did not have to. 

Had the writers of those other stories done what Fox did, apply imagination to creatively solve a problem, they could easily have avoided the Crisis mentality that still dominates and overwhelms editorial policy at DC. True, without Fox and Schwartz there to kick things off, the others would never have been bright enough to come up with the Multiverse on their own, just as Dark Knight gave lease to avenues of storytelling the wannabes could never have dreamed up by themselves. "No one wants to be first, but everyone wants to be second" is a business world truism, in part because being first is really pretty hard. Being second? Pffft! Piece of cake!

GL/GA. Gwen Stacy. Jean Grey. Dark Knight. We'd be poorer without those first dominoes. It's the ones after them unfortunately that really collapse the whole thing. Sadly, this is an industry rather than an artists' retreat and in business, nothing exceeds like excess.

Eric, thank you for the kind words. Every now and again, I think about starting a blog to editorialize and extemporize at will. Then I lie down until the feeling goes away. :-)

Your point about the mugging is an interesting one! I've read that Frank Miller being mugged just outside his apartment led to a lot of the darkness and vengeance-seeking in his Daredevil. 


Edited by Brian Hague on 02 August 2016 at 11:02pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 7  

Greg, Gorilla Grodd, Sam Simeon's uncle, snapped Angel O'Day's sister Dumb Bunny's neck by twisting her head completely around at the end of an issue in Phil Foglio's "Angel and the Ape" mini-series because... Continuity! And... Humor! 
++++++++++

...of course.

Sigh.


Anyway, I've occasionally considered playing a little game I like to call "Adventures In The Marvel/DC Wikis". Having not bought a first-run Marvel or DC book in 12 years, it would be quite a thing to explore the official online encyclopedia entries of various characters and see where they've gone, during that time. I mean, yeah, I keep my eye on current developments via news reports and discussions, but I'm sure that there's a lot of stuff which would surprise and horrify me.

Of course, sanity always prevails, and I instead spend that time on something I enjoy, like reading back issues. Got plenty of those that I've never read. No need to waste time on hollow echoes of beloved characters, when I can just go and read the real thing.

I seriously think that if I picked up an issue of, say, SPIDER-MAN or GREEN LANTERN, I'd find the characters, tones, and concepts unrecognizable. 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | 8  

No doubt. As someone who has done some online searches for this character or that, I can tell you you're better off without doing so. For one thing, everyone at both companies seems perfectly happy acknowledging that their characters are all rebooted retreads of the originals, with little to no connection to whatever "past" we may associate with them. 

Everyone's bright, shiny, and new, over and over again, so... yay, right?

There is some small comfort in knowing that the maniacs and sad sacks of today really aren't considered to be the same versions you and I grew up with... In fact, with the difference in our ages, the ones you had are very likely not the ones I did... :-)

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 9  

Had the writers of those other stories done what Fox did, apply imagination to creatively solve a problem, they could easily have avoided the Crisis mentality that still dominates and overwhelms editorial policy at DC. True, without Fox and Schwartz there to kick things off, the others would never have been bright enough to come up with the Multiverse on their own, just as Dark Knight gave lease to avenues of storytelling the wannabes could never have dreamed up by themselves. "No one wants to be first, but everyone wants to be second" is a business world truism, in part because being first is really pretty hard. Being second? Pffft! Piece of cake!
+++++++++++

I've trained myself to not blame trailblazing stories and the creators behind them for what came after. Yes, our host has offered copious mea culpas for the death of Phoenix and keeping Wolverine in the X-Men, but, y'know what? Everything that came after is not his fault. He and Claremont gave us all-time-classic stories and characters. While the direction that the industry has taken is depressing, to say the least, that doesn't mean I don't still love the stories which inadvertently started the cascade of dominoes.

Just because the Clone Saga and everything that spun out of it came along and basically broke Spider-Man for all time doesn't mean that the death of Gwen Stacy still isn't a powerful and moving story.

Just because everyone has fallen all themselves worshiping at the altar of Miller and DARK KNIGHT doesn't mean that story still isn't one of the most intense and moody Batman stories ever told. 


We shouldn't let the petty little people standing on the shoulders of giants make us forget about the giants, y'know?




Edited by Greg Kirkman on 02 August 2016 at 11:16pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 10  

No doubt. As someone who has done some online searches for this character or that, I can tell you you're better off without doing so. For one thing, everyone at both companies seems perfectly happy acknowledging that their characters are all rebooted retreads of the originals, with little to no connection to whatever "past" we may associate with them. 
+++++++++

I am genuinely afraid of what I'd find. At the very least, an Asian kid is now the Hulk, a teenage girl is Iron Man, and Spider-Man is a businessman.

...the f***?



Something that came to mind during the recent Gay Sulu controversy over in the land of STAR TREK--there used to be (and should be) a certain unspoken deal between creators and their audience. Characters have characteristics. These are the traits which define them, be they physical traits, personalities, or interpersonal relationships. Since they're fictional constructs, we readers need a fairly high degree of consistency in order to latch onto them. 

Once you start pulling at threads, the whole rug can pretty quickly end up being pulled out from under the audience. Without consistency, the whole thing falls apart, and there's no way to really get attached to these fictional constructs and become emotionally invested in them. "This is all pretend, so we can reshape and reboot things to suit our whims" is not exactly the best foundation for generating a sense of verismilitude and wonder in your audience.

When I read a comic, I don't want to think, "Oh, Writer X is going out of his way to 'fix' something, and, in so doing, is writing this character wrong". I want the suspension of disbelief that comes from good writing. Now, when I pick up, say, a Lee-Kirby issue of FANTASTIC FOUR, my mind may be at least partly in Historical Analysis mode, but I always--ALWAYS--get sucked into the stories and the characters. They feel like real people, like old friends. I believe in them. That's the magic of good writing. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 02 August 2016 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | 11  

There is some small comfort in knowing that the maniacs and sad sacks of today really aren't considered to be the same versions you and I grew up with... In fact, with the difference in our ages, the ones you had are very likely not the ones I did... :-)

+++++++++++

Yeah, no kidding. As I love to point out, my prime reading years were the friggin' 90s. As in, the Clone Saga, Heroes Reborn, and Zero Hour. 

I'm just glad I had the good taste at an early age to instinctively dwell in the back issue bins of my LCS. Whereas Leifeld and McFarlane were all the rage, at that time, I fell in love with the work of guys like Kirby, Romita, and some bum named Byrne. Even while I was reading contemporary books, I knew something was seriously wrong, and enjoyed the older stuff a lot more. That said, I still have guilty nostalgia for many of the 90s-era stories and stunts. 

But, let's be clear--I first quit reading a comic series/character out of anger at age twelve. (For the record, that was SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN # 226, the "reveal" that Spider-Man had been a clone since 1975.).


Like Kyle Reese, I grew up after. In the ruins.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 03 August 2016 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 12  

I think I'm going to mention three points that feel like the very origin of dark, glum and gloomy books. Not those first occurrences, but the seeds of the tree.

ITEM: Jim Shooter started writing Legion of Super-Heroes, and introduced two big elements. First, Karate Kid - a legionnaire whose power solely relied on hitting people. Not shocking them, not mentally putting them to sleep, not hemming them in a ring of fire - his power only worked when he beat people up. Other physical heroes up to that point in the Silver Age didn't seem to rely on fisticuffs... even Batman and Robin had other gimmicks besides beating the tar out of villains.

Also, Shooter assembled a team of super villains, and in the same story, killed one of his new characters. For good, for permanent, until the next reboot. Ferro Lad wasn't coming back. Yeah, Uncle Ben and Bucky were dead... but it wasn't quite the same.

ITEM: The death of Gwen Stacy, as already noted. This crossed a line at Marvel that I think couldn't be crossed back. Yes, as shown, Uncle Ben and Bucky were dead, but one was the impetus of creating a hero, and the other didn't really in the Silver Age (even if it was related during it.)

ITEM: The Punisher. The upshot of this character is that he was the ultimate avenger, killing criminals for their crimes to avenge his family. KILLING criminals. This just wasn't done until Castle showed up. That seems to be the start of the big shadow of "realistic" characters.

It might also have been inevitable that darkness was going to come into the books when they started dealing more with human drama rather than super heroics. I guess that started happening at Marvel, but once we got into the motivations of Karen Page or Jane Foster or Gwen Stacy, we had to start connecting with them... and to heighten the suspense when they were in peril, it had to be a connection sort of peril, so that we felt more about what was happening.
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