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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4622
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Posted: 16 July 2016 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 1
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Robbie Parry wrote:
You know, the other thing came to mind, too: there seemed to be little logic to the mix of personalities on the team. A former X-Men member, a former spy, a supernatural creature on a motorcycle and a Greek god. Yeah, a mix of personalities can be good, but there seemed to be a lack of logic. |
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According to Tony Isabella, The Champions were quite literally thrown together based on a formula dictated by Len Wein. Isabella says he originally pitched the idea of a series featuring just Angel and Iceman that was to be sort of a Route 66 with superheroes. That was rejected, but Len Wein said they could be part of a team book. Wein told Isabella the forumula was that a Marvel team had to have "a strong guy, a girl, and a character who stars in his own title." Hence the selection of the other members.
The Champions were grade-B characters thrown together arbitrarily. Perhaps if they'd had someone like Steve Gerber to do something unique with them it would have worked better, but the stories were straight-up Marvel-by-the-numbers, and if you wanted that type of story you probably preferred to see it in a title featuring one of the big-name characters.
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Shane Matlock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1760
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Posted: 16 July 2016 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 2
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This thread is making me want to dig out my Champions comics with Byrne art. Even if it wasn't as good as Avengers or Defenders or X-Men or FF it was still better than just about anything produced today.
Looking at some of the covers of the Champions issues I don't have, I just have to say, who designed this godawful Angel costume? Was it Don Heck? I'm glad he was back to my favorite Angel costume, albeit the red variation of it, by the time Byrne was drawing it.
Edited by Shane Matlock on 16 July 2016 at 9:46pm
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 16 July 2016 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 3
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I've long thought the Champions could have been a contender had it gone the Route 66, um, route noted above. Two heroes tooling about the country, visiting out-of-the-way places and heroes. They could look in on Polaris and Havok in New Mexico or wherever they were, meet up with Ghost Rider as his show traveled about, run into forgotten heroes from different eras... The idea has much greater elasticity than the pat, formulaic super-team approach Marvel editorial insisted upon at the time.
Another element lacking in the composition of the Champions as a super-team, if in fact they MUST go in that direction, is the presence of B-story members who are only associated with that team. The All-New, All-Different X-Men were almost exclusively members you could only find and follow in that title. The Avengers had Wanda, Pietro, and Clint... folks who'd only had a handful of appearances before becoming members and fighting shoulder-to-shoulder beside Marvel's top tier players. Soon after, they had the Vision, the Avengers' own live-in super-hero with no real ties outside the mansion. If you were a kid who wanted to follow the Vision, there was really only place to go... The Defenders had Nighthawk, Valkyrie, & Hellcat* amongst others; Members who had only the briefest of histories outside the circle of the team. With Dr. Strange, the Hulk, Sub-Mariner, of the Surfer, you knew you weren't in on the ground floor of their adventures. With Nighthawk or the Valkyrie, you almost were...
Now, at the time, if you were a Black Widow fan, you had to buy Champions, but for those of us who weren't, it just looked like Natasha had gotten thrown (temporarily, you'd hope) onto a random trash-heap of unused Marvel rejects. There wasn't anybody there you could feel you and you alone were just getting to know and find out about... Marv Wolfman perfected the correct mix in the New Teen Titans where a large percentage of the team were either new or had so little history so far apart from everyone else, they may as well have been new.
Even just a couple of new characters in the recipe could have helped bring readers to the title. As it was, the Champions were a mixed bag which you really had to go out of your way to care much about.
* Marvel's long history with Patsy Walker was practically a non-issue with the character since the super-athletic, flirty, "cheese and crackers!" heroine had little in common with her more straight-laced, fashion and dating tips providing progenitor.
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Matthew Wilkie Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 March 2011 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1139
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Posted: 17 July 2016 at 12:50am | IP Logged | 4
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Did it ever have a letters page and, if so, what was it called?
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Cables of Champions.
I recall one of the early letters paged featuring an article about the membership had been agreed. At one point Black Goliath was to be included, and indeed does appear in several issues (but not as a member).
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 17 July 2016 at 3:19am | IP Logged | 5
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Thanks Matthew.
+++
've long thought the Champions could have been a contender had it gone the Route 66, um, route noted above. Two heroes tooling about the country, visiting out-of-the-way places and heroes. They could look in on Polaris and Havok in New Mexico or wherever they were, meet up with Ghost Rider as his show traveled about, run into forgotten heroes from different eras... The idea has much greater elasticity than the pat, formulaic super-team approach Marvel editorial insisted upon at the time.
***
This would have been interesting. I'm always a fan of something different and I'm also a fan of as many US locations being used as possible.
With that in mind, isn't it about time Alaska and Hawaii got some adventures?
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4622
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Posted: 17 July 2016 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 6
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Shane Matlock wrote:
who designed this godawful Angel costume? Was it Don Heck? |
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Nope. According to the letters page of Champions #4, it was Len Wein and John Romita. Romita must have been having an off-day, or else Len took the lead on that design.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 17 July 2016 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | 7
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Red and yellow just did not work for Angel. It has worked on some (i.e. Reverse-Flash), but I haven't enjoyed that mix most of the time.
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Leigh DJ Hunt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 February 2008 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1570
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Posted: 18 July 2016 at 4:55am | IP Logged | 8
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My first exposure to The Champions was a British b&w comic reprinting JB's issues. The art absolutely had me captivated, I loved it as much as X-Men or anything else.
"unable to use any major villains."
Unable, why? I enjoyed Swarm and Kamo Tharnn anyway.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 18 July 2016 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 9
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My first exposure to The Champions was a British b&w comic reprinting JB's issues.
***
Do you remember the British reprint title? I'm curious now. Could it have been RAMPAGE?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 18 July 2016 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 10
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"unable to use any major villains."Unable, why? •• This was in the days of the Writer/Editors, one of the worst periods for creativity at Marvel. Ask to use Character A, and the writer/editor of his "home" title would invariably say "No, I have plans for him!" (The most bizarre example of this was on TEAM-UP, where Chris and I felt we should be using actual Spider-Man villains from time to time. We decided on a "test case" with Kraven, who we thought was one of the second or third stringer. But the W/E said he had plans for Kraven -- in TWO YEARS!! (We complained to Shooter, and he ordered the use of Kraven.)
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Matthew Wilkie Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 March 2011 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1139
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Posted: 18 July 2016 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 11
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I mentioned in my earlier post a similar introduction to the Champions and suggested it was Rampage but am now wondering if I am mistaken given that is also the name of the Champion's main villain. Am now thinking it might have been Marvel Superheroes.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 18 July 2016 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 12
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Yes, MARVEL SUPERHEROES sounds like the one.
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But the W/E said he had plans for Kraven -- in TWO YEARS!! ***
Two years? Jeez!
When Clinton becomes US President, she needs to legislate to make cross-pollination of villains in comics much easier; in fact, let's make it a UN directive!
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