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Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 1
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http://us13.campaign-archive2.com/?u=12703963b24c2d94a368d40 82&id=40f486d30f&e=[UNIQID]
A friend of mine sent me this link saying it was a good point by Brubaker(Why I quit doing work for hire superhero comics). But, after reading it, I was left thinking that not only was it not a good point, but that Brubaker was a perfect example of what's wrong with the industry.
I agree with him that "events" shouldn't be forced on a regular series/creative team, but I certainly don't agree that fans should "follow creators" or that creators should be allowed to do whatever they want with a property.
Brubaker's claim to fame for example. Bringing Bucky back. That's a part of the problem, not creators being smothered by the genre. It isn't the genre that is wrong for not indulging a Sex Criminals Daredevil or Bitch Planet Supergirl. If a writer can't come up with stories for the characters as they are established, then it isn't the character that's at fault. In fact, if "Kill or be Killed" is an example of what Brubaker would do with Marvel or DC characters if he was "free" to do what he wants, I applaud the industry for frustrating him.
Anyway, I'd have much rather read this blog on a Monday than a Friday. I don't like to get my blood boiling this early in the morning before the weekend.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 31180
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 2
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While I agree with you re: respect for the established superhero characters, I will say Brubaker is probably my favorite writer in comics right now. All of his creator-owned series scratch me right where I itch. His work on Batman was good and GOTHAM CENTRAL was my favorite book when it was being produced. I didn't like the idea of Bucky being brought back, but I did like how Brubaker did it and those were damn good comics. ( I was not so much a fan of Cap getting killed and Bucky taking his place, however.)
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 276
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 3
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Andy: "...if "Kill or be Killed" is an example of what Brubaker would do with Marvel or DC characters if he was "free" to do what he wants, I applaud the industry for frustrating him."
I don't believe that Ed Brubaker's current project is an example of what he would do with "other's" characters. Of course, I haven't read it, yet (mainly because it hasn't been published, yet... Oddly enough), but based on the images he has decided to share, I just may give it a shot. It certainly doesn't appear like anything that mainstream Marvel and/or DC is publishing.
And the industry isn't what is apparently frustrating him... It's idiot fans jumping to conclusions about his "part" in the latest Captain America storyline.
Mr. Brubaker's advice is good for fans that are getting "burnt out" on super-hero comics. I believe that his advice is, bottom line, that there is an alternative.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133325
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 4
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Must... resist... commenting..........
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14857
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 5
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I agree with him that "events" shouldn't be forced on a regular series/creative team, but I certainly don't agree that fans should "follow creators" or that creators should be allowed to do whatever they want with a property.
------
Fans should follow creators. On creator-owned properties. Which was what Brubaker was suggesting. Robert Kirkman, a few years ago, expressed the idea that Marvel and DC should focus on making their comics all-ages and accessible and that creators who wanted to the more "adult" stuff should just do that in their creator-owned work. What Brubaker is saying here doesn't conflict with that sentiment. He's acknowledged that he doesn't fit well with and has moved on from the character-driven properties, so he's doing creator-owned stuff now.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 6
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Here's what bugs me about the whole of this and I've said it in another thread as well, just because you CAN tell a story with a particular character, doesn't mean you SHOULD tell that story.
Decompressed storytelling makes this SO MUCH worse. Case in point, the New52 Superman storyline. The writing team decided to give him a new power that, once used, takes a good chunk of his powers away for a period of time. This then drifted to him losing his powers all together. If this storyline had been 3 or 4 issues and went back to being New52 Superman again, maybe you can get away with it. But this turd of a story lasted over a year. That's too long to ask a reader who likes the character to wait for the status quo to return. Worse yet, stories like these fall down a rabbit hole, because they take so long, that they NEVER get back. So, you never get the character back you want to read.so, readers lose interest. Writers forget the character, and you have to reboot the line.
Brubaker brings back Bucky. Should you tell that story? Maybe, maybe not. It was well written, but it would've be better if the story didn't eat up 2 years plus of Captain America comics to pay off.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6427
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 7
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Brubaker brings back Bucky. Should you tell that story? Maybe, maybe not.
**
It all comes down to whether or not you like leaving permanent piss-stains on the characters you write on.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 8
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Brubaker seems somewhat glad to have written stories for Marvel, and very relieved that he's doing his own thing now. Contrast this with guys like JB, who are just happy to have been able to work with Captain America and other of their favorite characters.
Maybe that's too subtle a difference. But it shows up in big ways in their stories.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 03 June 2016 at 6:57pm
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2366
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 9
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To discuss one point:
When I was a kid, I bought just about everything Marvel and DC produced, and I loved it. I wasn't just buying in to a particular title or character, I was buying into a whole world (two worlds)--that I enjoyed.
When I was an adult (to this day), I DO just follow creators I like--whether on creator-owned books or the mainstream stuff. If I buy five Marvel or three DC, I get to enjoy those creative teams working on characters I like, and I'm mostly protected from the big "events" that take over once a year...while still being close enough to get the gist of what they're doing. (I wasn't against Doc Ock being Spider-Man for a year or whatever, for example, but I didn't like it enough to buy the main book, but I got the gist of it over in the AVENGERS books.)
My growing up coincided with a decline in the industry anyhow. (I didn't PLAN to stop buying Marvel and DC, it just worked out that way.) Once the effects of CRISIS settled down at DC, the whole line was just a confusing mess--so Bye DC. Over at Marvel (this was the late 80's and into the 90's), many, many titles had overblown art (literally--the characters' bodies were bulging muscles almost to the point of exploding and the women had bubble bodies in their own way) and they flooded the market with substandard stuff--so Bye Marvel.
I moved to Independents and really enjoyed a lot of those: JB's NEXT MEN, Miller's SIN CITY, Mignola's HELLBOY--some good stuff was out there, just not at the two super-hero companies...and I still loved super-heroes. I'm embarassed to say this but Image Comics got me back to collecting--when they started, it was great! Jim Lee doing WILDCATS, Larsen on SAVAGE DRAGON (it was fun!), and the others were good enough--they were starting a new universe and I was there for the start! It was awesome...until they started flooding the market with substandard stuff too! (Mostly by 2nd and 3rd rate copies of the more talented founders.) They learned their lesson from Marvel well.
So, for 30 years, I've been following the talent. I buy ten comics a month by creative teams I like. Ironically, when I was a kid with no money I bought everything and now that I'm an adult with plenty of disposable money, I can barely find ten books to buy. (So I end up buying back issues and reprints of the comics that came out BEFORE I started collecting.) I would LOVE to buy an entire company's line--20 or 30 comics a month!
But they keep doing these things that drive people like Ed Brubaker and me (and a lot of my friends and a lot of you here on the Forum) away. What a waste. What a shame.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 03 June 2016 at 7:30pm
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 10
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I like a lot of Brubaker's work. Did not like the idea of bring back Bucky. And I especially don't like changing Bucky into a black ops,wet works assassin. If you don;t like the idea of kid sidekicks, don;t write characters who are kid sidekicks. Don't change the character into something so far removed from what he was originally.
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Joe Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6667
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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EB is a pro, and I trust any story he's writing to have depth and smart characters. I can understand after working for hire and seeing his plots made into movies why he'd want to go after "Millar Money" hisself. Go get em Ed.
(I liked what was done with Bucky/Winter Soldier. It was a riveting story that kept me guessing for years. During that span I was also reading ten or twelve other comics religiously. I can without a doubt tell you that CA was one of the first I'd read every month. It was my second favorite CA run behind Roger and JB's. I can't agree that Bucky was miterated upon, though, for while he was dead, CA could recount his feelings and summon up the need for vengeance. Finding out that his friend did NOT die in valiant battle with evil forces, but, was TORTURED FOR YEARS by those same evil forces would piss me off WAY m%# f&@$! more! AND I can fight to get a good man back on the side of the Angels? I thought it was done well, and very respectfully towards all sides. Guide/Epting/Palmer was great, too!)
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4881
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Posted: 03 June 2016 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | 12
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What he said was "I thought, this is why more people should just follow creators and read original comics". He doesn't say that all fans, or even most fans should, just that perhaps some of these fans would be happier if they did.
It was as a reaction for fans calling him a Nazi (among other things) and blaming him for the current Captain America story, which takes place 5 years after he lift Marvel.
And while I certainly didn't agree with the decision to bring Bucky back and make him the Winter Soldier, it's hard to argue that it wasn't a successful and profitable decision for Marvel.
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