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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4565
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| Posted: 02 May 2016 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | 1
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Submission was part of Marston's conception of Wonder Woman, but eroticism was not.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2323
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| Posted: 02 May 2016 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 2
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I think Wonder Woman is like Mickey Mouse now in the American psyche. People might love each of them without ever having seen a cartoon, comic, or TV show about either. My ex-girlfriend had a poster of the comic book Wonder Woman on her wall and never read a comic in her life. It inspired her (or was an example of her own self-inspiration) to be the best she could be.
The Gal Gadot portrayal of WW was the very best thing about the Batman V. Superman movie, and it will be very interesting to see her solo outing and the effect it has on women in the world.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 02 May 2016 at 11:54pm
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 02 May 2016 at 11:06pm | IP Logged | 3
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It's true that the Wonder Woman each person imagines for themselves, based mostly on the Lynda Carter TV series, is the one they're seeing as inspirational or heroic. The actual comic book portrayal in recent years of Red Diana, She-Punisher with a Sword, has nothing whatsoever to do with it. As a character, she has been portrayed inconsistently since Marston's death, becoming a lovelorn dishrag or a shrill man-hater or a reactionary woman-hater or simply an amnesiac player in other peoples' storylines. It's hard to find the heroic in Wonder Woman's actual book. If you're very, very lucky, you can hit the title at the point when it's simply generic super-hero action. Other periods will actually make you ill or mad enough to throw the book across the room. New Frontier is a good example of the latter. I like the art just fine, but Cooke's Comedian-based storyline of Murder-Happy Diana bitching out Lily-Livered Wimp Superman for NOT being Murder-Happy, and his just taking it, because, hey, he's a Lily-Livered Wimp after all was one of the most tone-deaf, asinine portrayals of "heroism" I've ever read. Seriously, people, what the fuck are you seeing in that?
Are there truly no more writers left anywhere in popular culture that don't think massive death tolls and murder-happy heroes are simply the price of entrance into an action story anymore? When did killing everyone (except the boss of course. He gets to live so he can see How Wrong he was...) and everyone else for 20 square miles in every direction become just another day at the office? And why is that exciting to read or see onscreen? For the record, sexuality was a part of Diana's original mission to Man's World, except that Marston phrased it as "allure." Women's allure was one of the assets available to them in converting men away from the path of selfishness and destruction they so willingly tread otherwise. "Loving Submission" to Authority (almost always Female Authority) was a vital aspect of society growing to become something that would survive and thrive into the future. The shattering of bonds and throwing off of chains are seen by modern eyes as simple bondage fetishism, but in the context of the times, woman casting off their chains had been part of the iconography of feminism since before the turn of the last century. Marston employed them in non-stop fashion, heedless of their prurient associations (and probably to some extent because of them) mainly to underscore the constant need for women to establish themselves as free beings, with power and strength all their own to not simply live their own lives as they saw fit, but to rule and gain political power of their own. Every issue is somebody's first, after all, and that message of shattering your own restraints and those forced upon you by others was at the very core of Wonder Woman's message, early on.
Later, that message became merely prosaic screeds about Liberation or simple punch'em-ups. Today, her message could be summed up as "HackhackslashKillKillKillAllDemMudderFuckersBreak'emstupidn ecks!!"
Oh, and of course, "Twentysumpthin' Supey's cute in shiny armor! Yum!"
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7699
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 12:42am | IP Logged | 4
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JB - * I will be watching the trailers waiting for that ONE LINE that will either win me over completely or sink the thing entirely. ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------- Well, not from the director of the WONDER WOMAN film, but if these quotes from Zack Snyder are real, and he is still the guiding light for the DC movies, this should just about be enough:
You could call it “high-brow” comics, but to me, that comic book was just pretty sexy! I had a buddy who tried getting me into “normal” comic books, but I was all like, “No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, “This is more my scene.”
Everyone says that about [Christopher Nolan’s] Batman Begins. “Batman’s dark.” I’m like, okay, “No, Batman’s cool.” He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn’t, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that’s how that would go.
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 2:02am | IP Logged | 5
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The words "Fuck that guy" aren't strong enough.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14831
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 3:32am | IP Logged | 6
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Submission was part of Marston's conception of Wonder Woman, but eroticism
was not.
----
From his interview in "Family Circle":
"Wonder Woman-and the trend toward male acceptance of female love power
which she represents indicates that the first psychological step has actually
been taken. Boys, young and old, satisfy their wish thoughts by reading
comics. If they go crazy over Wonder Woman, it means they're longing for a
beautiful, exciting girl who's stronger than they are. By their comics tastes ye
shall know them! Tell me anybody's preference in story strips and I'll tell you
his subconscious desires. These simple, highly imaginative picture stories
satisfy longings that ordinary daily life thwarts and denies. Superman and the
army of male comics characters who resemble him satisfy the simple desire to
be stronger and more powerful than anybody else. Wonder Woman satisfies
the subconscious, elaborately disguised desire of males to be mastered by a
woman who loves them."
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Andy Meyers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 567
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 5:19am | IP Logged | 7
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My mother has always cited Wonder Woman as the inspiration behind her career. When she was growing up, she is 72 now, there were not a lot of successful, powerful women to aspire to be. She even found she could not play sports she was interested in because they were simply not offered. Fast forward a couple decades and she earned her Masters and got an MBA at age 35, and that led to a career in academia. She eventually became a Business Dean at a college in the middle of the country. When she was still in that job, she gave a speech talking about how Wonder Woman was the driving force to become more than what society expected of her. I read the speech online about fifteen years ago but haven't been able to find it since. Sadly, her interest in comics did not last past her childhood as she has resisted every Wonder Woman related gift I've tried to give her since.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 5:41am | IP Logged | 8
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I had a buddy who tried getting me into “normal” comic books, but I was all like, “No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, “This is more my scene.”•• And there's everything thats gone wrong with comics since the Eighties.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3036
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 6:21am | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
Submission was part of Marston's conception of Wonder Woman, but eroticism was not.
----
From his interview in "Family Circle":
"Wonder Woman-and the trend toward male acceptance of female love power which she represents indicates that the first psychological step has actually been taken. Boys, young and old, satisfy their wish thoughts by reading comics. If they go crazy over Wonder Woman, it means they're longing for a beautiful, exciting girl who's stronger than they are. By their comics tastes ye shall know them! Tell me anybody's preference in story strips and I'll tell you his subconscious desires. These simple, highly imaginative picture stories satisfy longings that ordinary daily life thwarts and denies. Superman and the army of male comics characters who resemble him satisfy the simple desire to be stronger and more powerful than anybody else. Wonder Woman satisfies the subconscious, elaborately disguised desire of males to be mastered by a woman who loves them." |
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Was Marston the first to creepily insert his sexual obsessions into children's comic books? He certainly wasn't the last. |
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 10
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JB: I had a buddy who tried getting me into “normal” comic books, but I
was all like, “No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really
doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came
along, I was, “This is more my scene.”
••
And there's everything thats gone wrong with comics since the Eighties.
SER: Yeah, it's a textbook example of a bad business plan. We see this with
McDonald's: "Let's try to get the gourmet burger, Starbucks coffee crowd!"
and they change their model, which just doesn't work. Of course,
McDonald's still sold Big Macs. DC and Marvel stopped selling Big Macs. Or
rather they are no longer Big Macs in all but name.
TPTB, I think, wanted to feel like they were selling a product to more than
just kids. DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, WATCHMEN and THE KILLING JOKE are
*mature* (which unfortunately translated into "shocking" and sexual.)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132645
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 11
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Important Note!!! Stephen's "JB" indicates that he is quoting my post, NOT that I said what's in the first paragraph!!!!!!
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Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 11264
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| Posted: 03 May 2016 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 12
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I read an article yesterday,where Alan Moore said he thought The Killing Joke was a bad story,and he wishes he hadn`t written it.
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Topic Closed)
