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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132663
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Posted: 12 March 2016 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 1
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Early Marvel was built on one-in-a-billion chances. A kind of implied "Don't Try This at Home." ONLY the FF could have made that rocket ride. ONLY Peter Parker could have survived the spider bite. It was all about nearly impossible conjunctions of place, time, people, etc. Repeating the event should NOT produce the same results. But it started falling apart very quickly. I think of the Red Ghost and his Super Apes as perhaps the first domino to fall.
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James Johnson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 2089
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Posted: 12 March 2016 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 2
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I've always liked the Red Ghost and his Super Apes. But they never caught on as much as I thought they would.
JB - Did you ever have plans to have them appear in the FF?
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15881
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Posted: 13 March 2016 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 3
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The Superman family really does de-unique Superman because Krypto and Supergirl share his powers, have his background and really do make him less special -- though the character of Superman is well-suited to this kind of happy gang working together.
Batman, who is much more of a loner in character, is not, I think, de-uniqued by Robin or Ace in quite the same way. In a way, Batman is made more special by Robin, who reminds us of how great Batman is. Perhaps because Robin's costume isn't in any way derived from the Bat theme (and its bright colours complement the more gloomy colours of the Bat costume) and because he is an inferior apprentice, Robin in some ways enhances Batman. Ace certainly detracts nothing from Batman for me. But the idea of an extended gang working with Batman doesn't really suit the character. Once you get into Batgirl, Batwoman and so on, it's too much. Bat Mite is jump the shark territory.
JB, what's your view on She-Hulk? Clearly you have fondness for the character, but do you think she also dilutes the Hulk?
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7700
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 5:10am | IP Logged | 4
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I don't understand why we have to have so many variants of the same character, with just the odd twist.
Darken, Weapon X etc added nothing to Wolverine. All the Spider-Man variants out there. What's the point?
Having said that, She-Hulk was different in my opinion - she kept her intellect which was different from the Hulk at the time and therefore had a reason (actually, I'm trying to remember now, did she keep her intellect when first introduced? Hmmm)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132663
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 5:27am | IP Logged | 5
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JB, what's your view on She-Hulk? Clearly you have fondness for the character, but do you think she also dilutes the Hulk?•• Originally, yes. But Roger Stern's brilliant take on her -- the one I promptly stole! -- made her sufficiently different that the offense was much lessened.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17678
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 6
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I enjoy She-Hulk because she seems to actually enjoy (prefer?) being She- Hulk.
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3496
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 7
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Do villainous versions count as de-uniquing? I feel like when it comes to villains, there are some shades. Like, for example, I don't feel like Bizarro takes away from Superman, but you could make a pretty good argument that Ultraman from the Crime Syndicate does.
I thought the first Iron Man movie did a good example of counter-acting the de-uniquing aspect of the Iron Monger armor with the line about how Tony Stark built his in a cave in the desert, while Stane needed the world's most advanced laboratory and dozens of technicians to make something that ultimately wasn't comparable.
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Sam Houston Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 26 March 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1693
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 8
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The Legion of Super-Heroes were de-uniqued by their evil relatives as the Legion of Super-Villains.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 9
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Do villainous versions count as de-uniquing?
***
I'd say so. And I agree with your view on Ultraman.
What about de-uniquing that isn't really de-uniquing? The Shroud, of Marvel Comics, is a character whose parents were gunned down, leading him to become a vigilante. Yes, he has super powers, unlike Batman, but the origins and motivations are there. And yet it takes nothing away from the Dark Knight, in my view. If you surveyed 10,000 people across the world, 9,999 of them would know who Batman is, but probably between 1 and 3 would know who the Shroud is. I'm referring to 'civilians', by the way, a survey of comic fans might be different.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7700
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 10
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At a cursory glance, Moon Knight would be Batman's cousin
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Richard Stevens Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1938
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 11
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Were the Roger Stern modifications of She-Hulk in her original title or in the Avengers? I love JB's version, but haven't read anything prior.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132663
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Posted: 14 March 2016 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 12
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Roger adopted Jen for The Avengers, and introduced the idea that she ENJOYED being She-Hulk.
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