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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132645
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| Posted: 10 July 2015 at 6:40am | IP Logged | 1
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JB, I stopped reading comicbooks a little after you began on the FF, so I don't know the answer to this: how often, if ever, did your work reference the death of Jean Grey? (I suspect it's little to none.)••• None X-Men work? I can't recall any.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 10 July 2015 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 2
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I remember when Marvel gave up precious advertising space on the inside front cover to show "What Has Come Before" (or whatever they called the damnable things.) It was a somewhat useful solution to the abominable situation of part eleventeen of a forty-bleen part story... but it quickly turned into "Since you don't know what's going on now, here's a summation of what you didn't know happened last issue." Still no good hook for a new reader to jump on... but a way to keep the collectors reminded of the unmemorable (but permanent) events in the previous books.
I'm not counting the actual character introductions that Marvel used to have at the top of the first page describing them briefly - which was what SHOULD have been the guideline.
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4181
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| Posted: 10 July 2015 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 3
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Michael Penn - there was a mention when JB moved the Inhumans to the moon in Fantastic Four #240, but that's all that comes to mind.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132645
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| Posted: 10 July 2015 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 4
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I remember when Marvel gave up precious advertising space on the inside front cover to show "What Has Come Before" (or whatever they called the damnable things.) It was a somewhat useful solution to the abominable situation of part eleventeen of a forty-bleen part story... but it quickly turned into "Since you don't know what's going on now, here's a summation of what you didn't know happened last issue." Still no good hook for a new reader to jump on... but a way to keep the collectors reminded of the unmemorable (but permanent) events in the previous books.I'm not counting the actual character introductions that Marvel used to have at the top of the first page describing them briefly - which was what SHOULD have been the guideline. •• Something Shooter did of which I fully approved was getting rid of the top copy on the first page of every issue. Those few lines telling readers who the characters were and how they got that way. He maintained, and I agreed, that such information should be contained within the story, every issue. (Of course, he took it too far, and began insisting that such information should be containing in the first three pages of every issue.) It's a sad comment on Marvel that they got to a point where they felt they needed the entire inside front cover to do that job. "Writing for the trade," I suppose. Can't have those repeated blocks of exposition! Have to structure the stories for a form which was not their proper place. Almost like taking an aftermarket outlet and turning it into the prime location. Oh, wait. . . .
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8072
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| Posted: 10 July 2015 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 5
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"Killing Gwen (accidentally) opened the barn door, but other comicbooks much later (deliberately!) set that damn thing on fire and drove all the animals out."
----
Not coincidentally, the first major mention of Gwen in a while was in 1988 with the return of Gwen's clone during the Evolutionary War crossover....written by Gerry Conway. Given what they did to Gwen later, I bet he regrets that now!
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 10 July 2015 at 8:44am
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Brad Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 December 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1713
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| Posted: 10 July 2015 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 6
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Valid points all.
I wonder if there is a statistic as to what percentage of comics buyers were first time readers in the 1960's, 1970, 1980' ans so on.
I have a strong suspicion that that percentage has dropped drastically. Perhaps due to the fact comics have been more difficult to ascertain what is going on unless you have been previously reading. Perhaps because of alternate attractions for youth.
If anyone has the numbers I would be curious as to what they are. For example, if 25% of purchasers of the Fantastic Four in 1970 were new readers, I will bet that number is now well below 5% in 2015.
So my question is this: Has the change in writing affected the lower numbers of new readers, or has the lower number of new readers affected the writing?
What are your thoughts?
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7512
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| Posted: 11 July 2015 at 10:27am | IP Logged | 7
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In a way, Marvel has created its own version of the Silver Age. Most of their characters have the same names, but they're vastly different from what came before.
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Robert Ingrao
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 284
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| Posted: 13 July 2015 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 8
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"And, as I have said so many, many times, when the readers start to notice the characters aren't changing, it's time for THEM to change, not the characters."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ok, risking looking like an idiot here, can you (JB) please add a little to this statement, i mean i kind of get it, but maybe an example of a character that didnt change and how as a reader i might? or should?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132645
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| Posted: 13 July 2015 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 9
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"And, as I have said so many, many times, when the readers start to notice the characters aren't changing, it's time for THEM to change, not the characters.". . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ok, risking looking like an idiot here, can you (JB) please add a little to this statement, i mean i kind of get it, but maybe an example of a character that didnt change and how as a reader i might? or should? •• Comics, traditionally, are timeless. The characters did not age, and should not age. Readers were expected to stick around for about five years, with "new blood" flowing constantly into the pool. Any readers who stuck around long enough to notice the characters were not aging had a decision to make: accept this as a convention of the form, or move on. Demanding that the characters age/change along with the readers was not -- and should not have become -- and option.
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: 13 July 2015 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 10
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Comics, traditionally, are timeless. The characters did not age, and should not age. ~~~~~~~~~~ The Simpsons are a great example of how it should be done.
` Out of curiosity does anyone know who was the first writer to begin to age the characters? My first exposure to it was Stan Lee on Spider-Man. I wouldn't say Stan was the first thou. Since I don't know when it all began.
Was it a case of the chicken or the egg ? Was it the fans wanting the characters to change ? That sparked the fuse that led the writers to begin changing the characters, or was it the creators that lit the spark?
This all began before my time. So from the very start of my comic reading adventures. Characters aging and changing was the norm. It wasn't till I began interacting with other fans and creators. That I discovered comics didn't begin that way.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 July 2015 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 11
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GASOLINE ALLEY famously aged its characters in real time. Does this mean it was the first to do so? Probably impossible to say!
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12558
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| Posted: 13 July 2015 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 12
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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/13/422545636/ bloom-county-2015-berkeley-breathed-revives-comic-strip
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Topic Closed)
