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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 1
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it doesn't really make sense to have Peter Parker be a newspaper photographer anymore. It just feels wrong in the book.
I like the idea of pushing Peter's scientific know-how, but the 'global businessman' angle feels awkward (can't think of a better word) for such a grounded character (well, the one I grew up with, of course).
I get that Marvel is trying to have their cake and eat it, with a 'grown up' Spidey and a 'hip' teen version (Miles). As always, it feels like concepts are shoved at readers because of marketing departments and editorial edicts, not to tell fun, easily accessible stories.
I buy my kids (aged 10 and 14) Archie digests from time to time. They enjoy the older tales alongside the new, and are only concerned with an entertaining story, not heavy continuity or relatable characters.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 2
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The old market is gone.
I disagree. The 'old' market is simply being ignored. this 'changing audience' mantra is a hip way to justify weird (can't think of a better word) storytelling choices in most media, IMO.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 3
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KIP: A--Peter Parker did not marry a supermodel. When
they
first got married, they still had trouble paying their
bills. Considering most actors and models are poor,
having the Parker luck rub onto MJ (as it did when
they first got married) worked.
SER: Peter marrying a gorgeous actress/model* was a form
of fulfillment that he should have never experienced.
Peter ideally is a "close but no cigar" type character.
Also, it's one thing to have "Parker Luck" when you're
single and only accountable to yourself, but as a
married man, he started to resemble an anchor taking MJ
to the bottom of the ocean.
*BTW, the model thing bugged me because MJ was never
depicted as resembling a model (a hot party girl, yes,
model no). I did like how JB subtly redesigned her to at
least look like a model (as tall as Peter, if not
slightly taller, with insanely long legs).
***
C--the Audience. The comic audience that changes
every 5 years hasn't existed in decades. It's not
coming back. It can't come back. That audience
doesn't exist any longer. That market doesn't exist
any longer. (I mean the market where kids had the
freedom to run to the local drug store and buy a comic
on a huge comic rack. Those large comic stands don't
exist like they used to and parents don't let their
kids run free like that. Add to that, comics are no
longer the only place where kids can get easy access
to super-people. Between video games, netflicks and
more, kids have instant access to Superman in multiple
media.)
SER: I thought the new 52 (same-day digital) was the
perfect opportunity to return to an all-ages format. But
that was mostly a lost opportunity (I know kids who have
access to iPads -- if not their own, their parents).
I still think that the comic-book industry is
approaching the problem like a struggling McDonald's
that decides to turn into a niche business -- ditching
the Happy Meals and kid playgrounds and "goofy" mascots
and serving beer with the Royales with Cheese and le Big
Macs. Yes, they were losing sales before, but simply
going in the complete opposite direction is a doomed
endeavor.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 4
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I think change is good. Experimentation is good. And if it doesn't work, the readers will vote by not buying the book (or at least, that's how it used to be.) Drama is pretty important, and requires conflict usually - but it doesn't have to be the main character's conflict or drama.
But as has been noted before, in the end, when a writer is done with a book, the toys should be put back to how they were so that the next writer can do what he is hired to do. That doesn't mean that Robin has to go back to being 12 years old and constantly at Batman's side, or Peter Parker has to go back to being a near sighted high schooler in Forest Hills, or the X-Men should go back to being super heroes instead of persecuted people just trying to survive*... but it should mean that a new writer isn't stuck with ideas and modifications that make the character hard to recognize without a four page introduction.
*Not that every super hero and group shouldn't be hunted once in a while... but when every issue is "we have to survive these villains trying to kill us / imprison us / make love slaves of us", it gets dull REALLY fast.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133555
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 5
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The audience has changed because the industry MADE it change. Fanboys pandering to fanboys.
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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7593
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 6
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The 'old' market is simply being ignored.
***
With that, I agree. I didn't outgrown comic books; they outgrew me. If anything remotely close to the comics books I loved were still being published by Marvel and DC, I would be spending an awful lot of disposable income to purchase them. Marvel and DC made it clear a long time ago that they do not want my money, so I happily keep it in my wallet.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 7
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"After all, there's no big deal in Peter Parker becoming "Tony Stark" if the readers don't know how things used to be."
Readers know who Tony Stark is and is supposed to be.
Readers also know who Peter Parker is and is supposed to be.
In 2015 we live in a world where layman on the street and small children know that Clark Kent is Superman, Bruce Wayne is Batman, Peter Parker is Spider-Man, and Tony Stark is Iron Man.
It is a radically different world then it was before 2008 when the first IRON MAN movie was released and became a worldwide hit.
Tony Stark, Iron Man, and that status quo is a central part of three of the highest grossing movies of all time (IRON MAN 3, AVENGERS: AGE OF ULTRON, and AVENGERS).
Spider-Man has been a cultural touchstone that reaches beyond comic book audiences and into the public at large since the animated cartoon of the 60's, let alone a Macy's day balloon, and being the star of 5 major motion pictures and some of the most watched modern day cartoons around.
The idea of Spider-Man being suddenly thrust into the role of a Tony Stark-- and "Oh No! What happens NEXT?" -- is a clean and simple concept that anyone off the street can get.
The same held true with the Superior Spider-Man run. Spider-Man's worst enemy is now mind-swapped into his body. People got it. The most watched sitcom on television even tipped its hat to the premise in one of their cold opens.
And, as weird as it sounds, when I go to shows and signings, I constantly meet people of all ages (even-- gasp-- children) who started reading super hero comics for the first time with SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN because they heard about the premise through the news, TV, or word of mouth-- and decided to give it a try because they thought "it sounded weird." Go figure. :)
Edited by Dan Slott on 01 July 2015 at 7:46am
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4505
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 8
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Spend a night with the family and miss all the fun. Some very interesting points being made in the thread. I can say I would still be buying comics if they were intended for the preteen audience that supported the industry for so many years. Much the way I might watch The Three Stooges or Looney Tunes cartoons, I understand going in that I am not the target audience, but still like it. It would be fun to share current super hero comics with my kids, but that is not the case. I give them comics that are 30 years old and they love it. So the argument about "updating and changing" comics simply doesn't hold water.
I also think citing the Winter Soldier movie as proof the Brubaker run on Captain America was a good thing is very disingenuous. If Brubaker had never brought Bucky back as Winter Soldier we would simply have a different second Captain America movie. We would not have "missed out" on anything. We would have a different movie. Perhaps a better or worse movie. A bit like saying World War 2 was a good thing because we got all those fantastic movies about the war. =/
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Steven Legge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 866
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 9
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I can't honestly say I'm at all interested in the all-new all-different Spiderman you're doing Dan, but I do respect you coming here of all places to defend your work. You could be having a coffee somewhere listening to music or mowing the lawn or something rather than coming here. Not that it's hostile here or anything, but the vast majority here agree with JB, Darwyn Cooke and others about how superhero comics should be.
It has lead to some of the more interesting comic related talk in a while!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133555
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 10
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I can't honestly say I'm at all interested in the all-new all-different Spiderman you're doing Dan, but I do respect you coming here of all places to defend your work. You could be having a coffee somewhere listening to music or mowing the lawn or something rather than coming here. Not that it's hostile here or anything, but the vast majority here agree with JB, Darwyn Cooke and others about how superhero comics should be.••• It doesn't take courage to express an opinion in this Forum. Only an absence of visible agendas.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 11
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Thanks, Steven. I totally get if the teaser images, copy, or high concept hasn't grabbed your interest. Honestly, I'm being patient till I see how people respond to what the book actually IS-- and when they've gotten a chance to read it as a story.
I've been to this rodeo before with Superior Spider-Man. And for that, readers were far more volatile and incendiary over that premise-- until they actually read the book when it was up and running. I'm pretty sure we'll be able to win over a lot of the people who are ready to doubt the book out of the gate.
"It doesn't take courage to express an opinion in this Forum. Only an absence of visible agendas."
I wouldn't say it takes courage to express an opinion in this Forum. I think it takes an understanding of what the most likely outcome is going to be, and the willingness to accept that as an inevitability.
It's not courage to speak out in a place where someone else controls both the vertical and the horizontal. You don't fly into Cuba and say anything that might upset Castro. That wouldn't be courage. That'd be madness, right? ;-)
Edited by Dan Slott on 01 July 2015 at 8:12am
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Trevor Thompson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 June 2015
Posts: 346
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 12
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I'm interested to know why a new character hasn't been created instead of using Peter Parker to play Tony Stark, so to speak. In fact why aren't there more characters being created full stop? Are writers / artists afraid of being 'robbed' of their characters in case they become big? A Marvel Comics Showcase type book where new characters could be presented and then go on to their own title if they become popular might be a good idea.
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