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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2081
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 1
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"Drama comes from change."****
Respectfully, drama comes from conflict. And, as touched upon elsewhere, I don't see the point of turning Peter Parker into Tony Stark. Marvel already has a Tony Stark. Such a change leaves them with, essentially, two Tony Starks and zero Peter Parkers.
Edited by Josh Goldberg on 30 June 2015 at 6:02pm
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 2
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I've mentioned before that a lot of what I'm seeing at
Marvel or DC these days would qualify as What Ifs ("What
If Steve Rogers Lost the Super Soldier Serum..." "What
if Doc Ock became Spider-Man!") or Elseworlds or, in the
case of Jim Gordon as Batman, something from Assistant
Editors Month.
The ability to maintain a status quo is a lost art.
Peter Parker becoming a Tony Stark-type CEO is a great
way of keeping the series fresh... if it were a TV show
and you were faced with the very real challenges of
actors aging, leaving the show completely, or dying.
For example, I admire BUFFY seasons 4 - 6 (7 is a bit of
a mess), given that Whedon was dealing with the real-
life challenges I mentioned above. But if Buffy was a
comic book character, like Spider-Man or Captain
America, then I darn well would push for the series to
look as much like the first three seasons as possible,
with masterful use of the "illusion of change." Buffy,
Willow, Xander, and Cordelia would forever be believable
high school students, and Giles would never want to
leave the series and go back to London to be with his
family because, well, he's a fictional character.
I know folks like to mention the changes JB made to
Superman, for example, but that, to me, is classic
"illusion of change" and "window dressing." My dad
probably read Superman comics* during the '50s and early
'60s. He also picked up Superman comics for me on his
way home from work, both before and after the JB
relaunch. I guarantee he wouldn't have noticed any major
changes. Kandor, Supergirl, the Kents being alive, Lana
Lang, Smallville... only the hardcore fans would know
that those things had changed. Otherwise, Clark Kent,
Lois Lane, Daily Planet, Lex Luthor... it was still
SUPERMAN.
My dad was in his late 30s when MAN OF STEEL came out.
If we shift this to today, the status quo of most comics
would be impenetrable. "Yeah, Spider-Man was Doc Ock for
a while and during that time he became CEO and got
engaged but now he's back and all this is important to
know because..." The heavy continuity makes superhero
comics these days feel like soap operas.
*And can we take a moment to reflect on how we could
pretty much assume that the average kid during the Boom
generation read a Superman or Batman comic at one point?
It was not a niche interest, as it is now.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | 3
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DAN: When Ed Brubaker did his legendary run on CAPTAIN
AMERICA, he reenvisioned how James Buchanan Barnes
worked in WW2. Imagine a movie like CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE
FIRST AVENGER with a red domino masked Bucky. With
today's audience, that would seem silly, right?
SER: I see that argument a lot, and I guess I don't
understand why we've accepted that today's kids are
"cooler" and less accepting than previous generations.
Is it because we're trying to appeal to adults rather
than to all-ages? I liked Bucky. And I liked the classic
Dick Grayson, boy wonder, Robin.
I thought the Brubaker solution basically just replaced
Bucky with a different character with the same name. It
reminds me of the SEINFELD episode where George and
Jerry are writing a TV pilot based on Jerry's life and
can't figure out how to make the character of Elaine
work ("What do women say?" "I don't even know what they
think!"). So they just wind up not using her at all.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133551
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 4
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Respectfully, drama comes from conflict.•• THANK you!!!!!
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4185
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 5
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Dan Slott wrote:
| When Ed Brubaker did his legendary run on CAPTAIN AMERICA, he reenvisioned how James Buchanan Barnes worked in WW2. Imagine a movie like CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER with a red domino masked Bucky. With today's audience, that would seem silly, right? |
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Probably not the best example to use on this board, Dan...
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14863
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 6
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See, the problem is, too many people, fans and pros alike, have come to think of Parker as a LOSER. He's not. He's a sad sack, to be sure, but he is no more a LOSER than any other average guy -- which is what he is supposed to be, and what he should read as being, provided one does not stick around for 40 years.
------
I think the problem is that Peter (and the Marvel Universe) have aged up so much. An ever youthful Peter holds the hope that he'll eventually make everything work out, even if the readers will never see this. An older Peter who is still having the same problems does read as a bit of a loser.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 7
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"Respectfully, drama comes from conflict."
If you want to be technical and go back to the ancient Greeks (who invented "Drama"), it come from "action."
I like to think it comes from state change. A character begins a scene in one frame of mind-- makes a change-- and leaves in a new altered state, for good or ill. And this happens on a larger scale from scene-to-scene, from act-to-act, from story-to-story and so on.
And, like others have said here many times, one of the tricky things about writing for iconic characters is writing the "illusion of Change", so that you can tell great, big, epic yarns-- and yet still have the characters in their iconic rolls for the next generation.
"And, as touched upon elsewhere, I don't see the point of turning Peter Parker into Tony Stark. Marvel already has a Tony Stark. Such a change leaves them with, essentially, two Tony Starks and zero Peter Parkers."
Not so. If you check out your other Marvel solicits (like for Mark Waid's AVENGERS), you'll see that there might be some changes on that front. Also, w/ Miles Morales running around in high school, there'll be someone having some very classic Peter Parker-style problems. This new status quo for Peter will put him in an interesting state change where he is the only one filling that kind of role. And how WILL a Peter Parker react/function IN that role will be something fun, unique, and new-- and I guarantee that it will cause some... DRAMA! :-D
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 8
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When Ed Brubaker did his legendary run on CAPTAIN AMERICA, he reenvisioned how James Buchanan Barnes worked in WW2. Imagine a movie like CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER with a red domino masked Bucky. With today's audience, that would seem silly, right? •• Always fills my heart with joy to find myself in a discussion with someone who has such a deep and rich understanding of the characters and their histories.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 9
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"Respectfully, drama comes from conflict."If you want to be technical and go back to the ancient Greeks (who invented "Drama"), it come from "action." I like to think it comes from state change. A character begins a scene in one frame of mind-- makes a change-- and leaves in a new altered state, for good or ill. And this happens on a larger scale from scene-to-scene, from act-to-act, from story-to-story and so on. •• That is not how serial fiction works.
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posts: 4185
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 10
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Stephen Robinson wrote:
| My dad was in his late 30s when MAN OF STEEL came out. If we shift this to today, the status quo of most comics would be impenetrable. "Yeah, Spider-Man was Doc Ock for a while and during that time he became CEO and got engaged but now he's back and all this is important to know because..." The heavy continuity makes superhero comics these days feel like soap operas. |
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Feel weird (sorta kinda) defending Marvel given how little I've found that interests me about the next crop of books, but continuity is only as impenetrable as you make it. Knowing what's gone before can be useful for providing context for what's happening now, but "needing to know it" is quite different.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 11
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"Always fills my heart with joy to find myself in a discussion with someone who has such a deep and rich understanding of the characters and their histories."
I've been reading comics for over 40 years. I love 'em and respect 'em from every era.
I loved watching Superman lift jalopies over his head.
I loved watching you craft tales where he lifted space shuttles.
It's okay to enjoy both the camp of Adam West/Burt Ward's Batman & Robin...
...while at the same time enjoying the modern day take of Chris Evans/Sebastian Stan's Cap & Bucky.
I don't think of it as a wrong or mock-able opinion. Just one that I have, that I enjoy, and one that I'm entitled to have. :)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 30 June 2015 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | 12
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Feel weird (sorta kinda) defending Marvel given how little I've found that interests me about the next crop of books, but continuity is only as impenetrable as you make it. Knowing what's gone before can be useful for providing context for what's happening now, but "needing to know it" is quite different.•• Unfortunately there are a lot of fans and retailers who do not know the difference between "knowing" and "needing to know." Even here, in this Forum, we have see this. When GENERATIONS 2 was coming out, there were people saying you HAD to read G1 before reading G2. This was in no way true. How many potential readers have been chased out of comic shops by the thought that starting to read Marvel Comics requires a mountain of homework -- and how many do we imagine can really be lured in by a big "event" that "cleans house" ---- but requires comprehensive knowledge of what is being "cleaned"? Stan and Jack could sum up continuity in a couple of lines. By the time Chris and I were on X-Men, it required a couple of panels. Eventually it required a fold-out on the inside front cover. Now. . . . ?
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Topic Closed)
