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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:13am | IP Logged | 1  

What kind of mentality inherits Big Barda from Jack
Kirby and thinks that the best story in me for this
character is to turn her into an amateur porn star?

What's more unfathomable, taking a warrior woman and
turning her into a weak minded porn star, or taking an
an everyday woman and showing she has the courage to
make a personal sacrifice for the greater good of
humanity?

****

SER: For years, I've been hearing about these comics
where Big Barda and Superman made a porn film and
Scarlet Witch gave Wonder Man a blow job. Unfortunately,
that didn't occur in the comics I read but I'd love
access to the parallel universe where those issues were
published.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132645
Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 2  

What kind of mentality inherits Big Barda from Jack Kirby and thinks that the best story in me for this character is to turn her into an amateur porn star?

What's more unfathomable, taking a warrior woman and turning her into a weak minded porn star, or taking an an everyday woman and showing she has the courage to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good of humanity?

****

SER: For years, I've been hearing about these comics where Big Barda and Superman made a porn film and Scarlet Witch gave Wonder Man a blow job. Unfortunately, that didn't occur in the comics I read but I'd love access to the parallel universe where those issues were published.

••

Let a legend take hold, and it takes a thermonuclear device to dislodge it. Truth is of no consequence.

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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:21am | IP Logged | 3  

JB: The "illusion of change" means that the
characters/settings/stories, etc, remain the same when
viewed as an overall package. Characters aging,
characters getting married, having children, becoming
CEOs, etc, these are REAL changes. Nothing illusionary
about them.

SER: I'd mentioned previously in this thread that Marvel
and DC had in its quest for "realism" and "change" and
"growth" had started functioning like soap operas.
Marlena or Nikki or Brooke have been married multiple
times or even *dead* a few times. They have grandkids
who are my age yet they're still perpetually "youngish."
These are changes and events that would most likely
shatter a normal human being.

And what's interesting is that the push for "growth"
often makes the characters less realistic emotionally.
Would Peter Parker, who saw his girlfriend murdered by a
villain who discovered his identity, really choose to
*marry* a woman and continue being Spider-Man? Would
Batman callously continue training sidekicks if he'd
lost not one but *two* Robins?

But these changes to Spider-Man do sound like when I
"check back in" to a soap I like: "Huh, Jack was
governor for a while but now he's back to running
Jabot... oh, and he's married to his ex-wife who was
dead for a while?"
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:25am | IP Logged | 4  

 John Byrne wrote:
Whoa! Talk about false equivalency! Neither of
those properties were created as All-Ages and "darkened."


I don't want to misrepresent what you're implying, so I'll ask: are you
saying that particular properties or mediums shouldn't ever change
beyond their original audience? That the tone, content and target
audience of say Superman circa 1930s should remain roughly the
same 80 years later?

Also, do you agree or disagree that audience expectations, for better or
worse, have changed?

These aren't facetious questions; I'm genuinely curious as to your
answers, and also why you (and many others here) so firmly believe
that all ages superhero comics would be very successful.
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 5  

Wouldn't it make more sense to create new characters
with these 'interesting' takes, and maintain iconic
ones in a certain status quo?
••

When I started at Marvel, there was a mantra among
writers. They did not want to create new characters
because "I don't want to give Marvel the next Spider-
Man." Most of the people saying this could not have
created even a pale shadow of Spider-Man, on their
best day, but this was a time when the ennui was
starting to kick in, and writers and artists were
casting themselves as Crusaders against the Evil that
was Corporate Marvel.

There seems to be a lot of this mentality at work
today. If Mr. Writer does a "story" in which Aunt May
becomes the Juggernaut, it is a zero in, zero out
scenario. There has been no risk of "creating"
something which could then be "lost" to Marvel.

Money. Money changes everything. When I started, all I
wanted was to play with the really cool toys. I wasn't
worrying about Big Bad Marvel stealing my brilliant
creations. I GAVE them Alpha Flight, and didn't even
blink. Stupid? Some would say so. But not the readers.
They said "Thank you!"

---------

Readers also share part of the blame; these days they
don't actually want new characters. On those rare
occasions that someone creates a totally new
character--Gravity, Blue Marvel--people don't buy
their books. I suspect that if the new Ms. Marvel was
given a unique name her title would have bombed. But
even though the character has no connection (not even
her powers) with Carol Danvers, other than being a
fan, the name was enough familiarity to bring in
readers.
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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 6  

SER: I'd mentioned previously in this thread that
Marvel and DC had in its quest for "realism" and
"change" and "growth" had started functioning like
soap operas. Marlena or Nikki or Brooke have been
married multiple times or even *dead* a few times.
They have grandkids who are my age yet they're still
perpetually "youngish." These are changes and events
that would most likely shatter a normal human
being.And what's interesting is that the push for
"growth" often makes the characters less realistic
emotionally. Would Peter Parker, who saw his
girlfriend murdered by a villain who discovered his
identity, really choose to *marry* a woman and
continue being Spider-Man? Would Batman callously
continue training sidekicks if he'd lost not one but
*two* Robins?But these changes to Spider-Man do sound
like when I "check back in" to a soap I like: "Huh,
Jack was governor for a while but now he's back to
running Jabot... oh, and he's married to his ex-wife
who was dead for a while?"


When I described an Iron Man story to my Mom in the
mid-80s, she responded, "it's a soap opera." It was.

Edited by Kip Lewis on 02 July 2015 at 7:37am
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Trevor Thompson
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 7  

Readers also share part of the blame; these days they
don't actually want new characters. On those rare
occasions that someone creates a totally new
character--Gravity, Blue Marvel--people don't buy
their books. I suspect that if the new Ms. Marvel was
given a unique name her title would have bombed. But
even though the character has no connection (not even
her powers) with Carol Danvers, other than being a
fan, the name was enough familiarity to bring in
readers.

************************************************

There's definitely room for new characters to become popular but the writing has to be engaging and Marvel have to stop cancelling books after 12 months and then start again with a new #1 to get that short spike in sales. It's stopped me from being invested in a book because I know it'll be cancelled by the end of the year.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 8  

Whoa! Talk about false equivalency! Neither of those properties were created as All-Ages and "darkened."

++

I don't want to misrepresent what you're implying, so I'll ask: are you saying that particular properties or mediums shouldn't ever change beyond their original audience? That the tone, content and target audience of say Superman circa 1930s should remain roughly the same 80 years later?

••

That's two different questions.

The "tone" of Superman (to pick one example) was a lot more rough and tumble in the early days. He beat up wife beaters, tossed bad guys over the horizon. But as his popularity (as a publishing entity) grew, he "settled down" and became less of a vigilante. In fact, like Batman, he became a duly deputized member of various law enforcement agencies.

This is not "change" so much as it is a shaking out period. Superman as originally presented in ACTION COMICS 1 needed a little polish. He got it, and that brings us to the second question. The model then locked in, virtually unchanged, for the next fifty years. (When there was felt a need for a radical change, an "imaginary story" was presented. The death of Superman wasn't "real" in those days.)

So, yes. Once the groundwork is laid, it should remain constant and consistent. A reader in 1956 should find the same Superman as was found by a reader in 1946. Artistic styles change, fashions change, attitudes change -- but the character(s) remain recognizable.

=============

Also, do you agree or disagree that audience expectations, for better or worse, have changed?

••

The expectations AND the audience has changed. Or, more correctly, the audience itself has NOT changed.

Shortly after I started working on Superman, there was much hoopla up at DC. A study had come in showing that there were more older readers. The people in charge were thrilled. The product was appealing to a wider range of consumers. Then someone pointed out that those "older readers" were the SAME readers -- they might be thirty years old, but they weren't new. They'd been reading since they were eight.

And a shift began. Not deliberate. Not conscious, at first. But the books started playing more and more to those "older readers" who were, in the wider analysis, the LAST people we should have been playing to. The new blood was forgotten, even driven away.

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Ron Ohr
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Joined: 25 June 2012
Posts: 26
Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 9  

"SER: For years, I've been hearing about these comics
where Big Barda and Superman made a porn film..."


No where in my post did I state that Barda and Superman made a porn film.
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Antonio Diniz
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Posts: 53
Posted: 02 July 2015 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 10  

 Mark Haslett wrote:
Someone ought to point out JB's comment had no judgment-- disdain-wise or other-wise --except to say that coming here and posting against-the-grain is not much of an accomplishment --for ANYONE.

Maybe it's not about accomplishment. Maybe it's about extending a person the same respect they extend to everyone else.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 11  

Someone ought to point out JB's comment had no judgment-- disdain-wise or other-wise --except to say that coming here and posting against-the-grain is not much of an accomplishment --for ANYONE.

++

Maybe it's not about accomplishment. Maybe it's about extending a person the same respect they extend to everyone else.

••

Isn't that exactly what's happening?

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Stevie Thomas
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Posted: 02 July 2015 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 12  

JB said:
"Characters aging, characters getting married, having children, becoming CEOs, etc, these are REAL changes. Nothing illusionary about them."

But didn't you have Bruce Banner marry Betty? Have Namor become a CEO? Why were those not "real changes"?
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