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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12767
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 1
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What kind of mentality inherits Jane Foster from Lee-Kirby and thinks that the best story in me for this character is to give her cancer and turn her into Thor? Unfathomable.
But this isn't merely a matter of forgoing all-ages -- it's dumping all-eras too. Dozens and dozens of comicbook creative teams, from legends to quotidian talents, over decades work "on model" and present to new generations of readers essentially the same characters. And then, sometime, somehow, some people spurn that in favor of their own re-model. And once the damage is done, they turn their doings upside down and claim that the audience and the industry have changed, when they are the ones who helped destroy it. The hubris is... unfathomable.
Edited by Michael Penn on 02 July 2015 at 6:21am
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Chuck Wells
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1244
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 2
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Change for changes sake is the order of the day, and this version too shall pass before 18 months have elapsed. Too many creators these days prefer to do anything other than just manifest their talents by writing a riveting story or drawing incredible visuals. They simply MUST shake things up - for a brief time - to disguise the fact that they don't know what to do with characters that made their reputations without quarterly bells & whistles?
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Trevor Thompson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 June 2015
Posts: 346
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:39am | IP Logged | 3
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There's a panel (from the 50s?) where Batman has apprehended Catwoman and she tries to tempt him into joining her but he says no because they are on the opposite sides of the law. Now they're sleeping with each other -- male fantasy fan fiction at its best.
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Adam Hutchinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4502
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:41am | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
Change for changes sake is the order of the day,
and this version too shall pass before 18 months have
elapsed. |
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Doesn't that make the changes your complaining about, if
they're not permanent, in reality "the illusion of
change"?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133563
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 5
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But this isn't merely a matter of forgoing all-ages -- it's dumping all-eras too. Dozens and dozens of comicbook creative teams, from legends to quotidian talents, over decades work "on model" and present to new generations of readers essentially the same characters. And then, sometime, somehow, some people spurn that in favor of their own re-model. And once the damage is done, they turn their doings upside down and claim that the audience and the industry have changed, when they are the ones who helped destroy it. The hubris is... unfathomable.•• Add a heaping helping of ol' fashioned LAZINESS, too. It is so much EASIER to write and draw the characters any old which way than to stay on-model. Staying on-model is a CHALLENGE. Oh, Lord! It's the 487th time Spidey's had a confrontation with Jonah! Yes, it is. So it's up to YOU, "Creatives," to make it INTERESTING.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15997
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 6
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Kourosh wrote: Which, not surprisingly, is not what I actually said.------------------------------------------- No, what you said was what I quoted you as saying. i.e. you claimed the audience is conditioned to expect darker stories and therefore it is unfair to expect Marvel to return to simpler stories aimed at all ages.
I think it is perfectly valid to point out incidence of all-ages material that have been huge successes, illustrating that there can be no commercial reason to shun such material.
Pointing out the success of Breaking Bad or Games of Thrones adds little to the argument because no one is saying there is no place for complex, adult material. If I'd said that all adult-aimed material should be warped to be all-ages, because that's what the audience expects, then this would have some relevance.
You are saying it is 'unfair' to ask Marvel to deliver all-ages material, despite that being precisely the marketplace these properties were created for. Hence the relevance of,say, LEGO. If audiences are conditioned to expect complex, dark material, isn't it unfair to expect a LEGO movie to be all ages?
If that can be done to great success, why cannot Marvel do it
Selling to its current niche would be more understandable if the comics were selling large numbers, but they aren't. The numbers are weak, so there seems very little commercial imperative to stick with the current stance.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133563
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:48am | IP Logged | 7
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Change for changes sake is the order of the day, and this version too shall pass before 18 months have elapsed.++++++ Doesn't that make the changes your complaining about, if they're not permanent, in reality "the illusion of change"? •• No. (But you knew that.)
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Adam Hutchinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4502
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
Change for changes sake is the order of the
day, and this version too shall pass before 18 months
have elapsed.
++++++Doesn't that make the changes your complaining
about, if they're not permanent, in reality "the
illusion of change"?
••No. (But you knew that.) |
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To me, though, it does seem to be the same (or at
least very similar). If, for argument's sake, Peter
spends this story line as CEO of Parker Industries
before being reset back to a photographer for a
newspaper, somehow. How is that different from Steve
Rogers becoming The Captain, or Beta Ray Bill as Thor,
or She-Hulk on the Fantastic Four, or James Rhodes as
Iron Man?
Edited by Adam Hutchinson on 02 July 2015 at 6:59am
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 9
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The 'new' Spidey and Jane Foster ideas are (to me) forcing square pegs into round holes.
Wouldn't it make more sense to create new characters with these 'interesting' takes, and maintain iconic ones in a certain status quo?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133563
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:01am | IP Logged | 10
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The "illusion of change" means that the characters/settings/stories, etc, remain the same when viewed as an overall package. Characters aging, characters getting married, having children, becoming CEOs, etc, these are REAL changes. Nothing illusionary about them.If Peter Parker, high school student, breaks up with his girlfriend and, a few issues later, gets a new girlfriend, that is the illusion of change. He's still Peter Parker. He's still in high school. He still has a girlfriend. If Peter Parker's girlfriend is MURDERED, that's a real change. It draw a line thru the character's history. It creates a BEFORE/AFTER point. There is a great deal of difference between "Back when I was dating Liz," and "Back before Gwen died."
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Ron Ohr
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2012
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 11
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"What kind of mentality inherits Jane Foster from Lee-Kirby and thinks that the best story in me for this character is to give her cancer and turn her into Thor? Unfathomable."
By the same token:
What kind of mentality inherits Big Barda from Jack Kirby and thinks that the best story in me for this character is to turn her into an amateur porn star?
What's more unfathomable, taking a warrior woman and turning her into a weak minded porn star, or taking an an everyday woman and showing she has the courage to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good of humanity?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 12
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Wouldn't it make more sense to create new characters with these 'interesting' takes, and maintain iconic ones in a certain status quo? •• When I started at Marvel, there was a mantra among writers. They did not want to create new characters because "I don't want to give Marvel the next Spider-Man." Most of the people saying this could not have created even a pale shadow of Spider-Man, on their best day, but this was a time when the ennui was starting to kick in, and writers and artists were casting themselves as Crusaders against the Evil that was Corporate Marvel. There seems to be a lot of this mentality at work today. If Mr. Writer does a "story" in which Aunt May becomes the Juggernaut, it is a zero in, zero out scenario. There has been no risk of "creating" something which could then be "lost" to Marvel. Money. Money changes everything. When I started, all I wanted was to play with the really cool toys. I wasn't worrying about Big Bad Marvel stealing my brilliant creations. I GAVE them Alpha Flight, and didn't even blink. Stupid? Some would say so. But not the readers. They said "Thank you!"
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