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Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2799
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 1
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Never give the fans what they THINK they want! - Stan Lee
I was going to post the same thing but since I think I want Peter Parker back they way he was, I'm confused. ;)
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1663
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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Peter Martin wrote:
| Which is why Disney has fared so poorly with such fare as Frozen and Wreck It Ralph. You just cannot attract an audience with an all-ages approach. |
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Which, not surprisingly, is not what I actually said. I don't deny that all ages material can be successful, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will always be successful, nor is it definitive proof that it's what the majority of the audience expects or wants.
Let's not resort to false equivalence - I could just as easily point out for example the wild success of darker material that is definitely not all ages, like Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad. Would these have been more successful, or have better stories, if they'd been all-ages? Indeed for every Wreck it Ralph or Harry Potter, there are a dozen much darker non-all ages blockbuster movies doing the rounds and raking in billions.
But back to comics, and I think the somewhat simplistic mindset that pervades some of the arguments in this thread - basically the "let's hit the reset switch and go back to 1983" type of thinking - is not necessarily the right answer. There does however seem to be a compelling case that Marvel should at least try to release a genuine all ages superhero line alongside its current releases and see how it performs in relation to those. Spider-Man would be a prime candidate for such an experiment.
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 12:01am | IP Logged | 3
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When I was a kid all the comics I read from Marvel and DC were all ages comics. The more adult or mature titles were the rarity. That has all changed. It is now the all ages comics that are the rarity.
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Paul Kimball
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2181
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 4
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All-ages writing seems like a skill that not everyone has. Maybe it's not
taught any longer, was it ever?
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Trevor Thompson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 June 2015
Posts: 346
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 5
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The publisher hoping to get younger readers would not and should not spend any time pandering to older readers.
But not-so-coincidentally, an effort to make the books all-ages friendly, back on-model, and back on shelves where young people shop and might actually buy new comics would also appeal to readers who've hated everything Marvel's puked out since they cancelled XHY.
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It makes me wonder if Marvel think all-ages means just for kids. Comics in the 80s certainly took on a dark tone: Daredevil, Spider-Man, X-Men and Iron-Man are just a few examples but they could be read by kids and adults alike without ever needing a rating system.
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Joe Welsh
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Posts: 197
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 2:16am | IP Logged | 6
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| Posted: July 01 2015 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 1 | post reply |
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"My 7 year old boy is standing right next to me at this moment, by coincidence. No way in HELL would I ever offer this up to him."
And if that's where your metric is, you shouldn't. I also wouldn't recommend having him read issues of the Punisher. Or Wolverine. Or Deadpool-- or what have you. The Marvel books have ratings on them, much like movie ratings, to help readers find books that appropriate for different ages. It's why titles like MS. MARVEL or SILVER SURFER are probably better fits.
"That alone makes it light years away from great COMICBOOK writing -- and that's, of course, what we're all discussing."
Yes. Because if your 7 year old kid is the metric, then obviously SAGA is light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing. WATCHMEN is light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing. DARK KNIGHT is light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing. LOVE & ROCKETS and HELLBOY and scenes from NEXT MEN and HEAVY METAL and VELVET and COWARD and WALKING DEAD and NEMESIS and some of the best comics that have come out of this entire medium are light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing.
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For almost 30 years, that 7 year old was the metric. I grew up on comics. I love the comics from 1975 to 1989. (my Period) I can not as a responsible parent of a an 8 year old and a 13 year old let them read any comic published today. (Mr Byrne excluded) You mention titles after that time, which began the downslide of enjoyable and fun to read comics era. When it was easier to tell gritty/violent/sexual stories because the people who were in the industry lost sight that their audience was the always present sliding scale of 8 to 12 year olds the industry was lost.
I can give my 8 year old any issue of Amazing Spider-man #1 to 250 ,( the death of Gwen Stacy might be the exception) or Fantastic Four 1- 290, as examples and not worry about exposing him to offensive or extreme adult content. If I go to Comic book store today can I say that? Can I? Are you writing for the 40 year old or the 8 year old?
Joe
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 3:27am | IP Logged | 7
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It makes me wonder if Marvel think all-ages means just for kids.
````````````````` I was about to write that .
It seems to me that the Image Founders are to blame for the state of affairs. They're not alone in sharing the blame. If my memory is serving me correctly. This dramatic shift towards more "mature" content in mainstream comics occurred in the 90's.
It was before the formation of Images comics. The big stars were still doing the rounds at DC and Marvel. It was around this time that I began seeing a shift in the way the stories were being written and drawn.
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Conrad Teves
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Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2204
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 4:19am | IP Logged | 8
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"All Ages" should mean just that. The classic Warner Bros. cartoons were all ages in a very slick way. There was plenty for kids to enjoy, and stuff that might actually be invisible to kids but very visible to adults.
One of the things that gets lost in "adjusting" the target audience for Superheroes from All Ages to (ahem) older audiences, is the *charm* they possess.
Recall the unfortunate Nu52 issue of Catwoman where she and Batman have sex. I thought the scene as downright icky. Having that "on camera" just seems massively off-tone. Bear in mind I say this as a huge Manara and Serpieri fan.
If Superhero books were made All Ages, as was originally done, this unfortunate scene wouldn't be able to happen: What Taking my Daughter to a Comic Book Store Taught Me
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Trevor Thompson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 June 2015
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 4:20am | IP Logged | 9
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During the 90s comics appeared to veer towards being more violent and mature. We had characters with big guns, two samurai swords, and would rather kill than apprehend a villain.
Mr Byrne has a point: Wolverine's popularity had a certain amount to blame as well as Frank Millar's Dark Knight. Fans becoming pros wanted their characters to be like Wolverine and Batman.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 4:27am | IP Logged | 10
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Let's not resort to false equivalence - I could just as easily point out for example the wild success of darker material that is definitely not all ages, like Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad. Would these have been more successful, or have better stories, if they'd been all-ages?•• Whoa! Talk about false equivalency! Neither of those properties were created as All-Ages and "darkened."
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Trevor Thompson
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 4:49am | IP Logged | 11
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I don't believe anyone is saying there isn't room for adult comic books, of course there is. The problem occurs when books that were initially made to be for all-ages are darkened to appeal to adult audiences. Imagine Charlie Brown after being tricked yet again by Lucy taking out a gun and shooting her, it wouldn't be the same. Yet, I still can see that over and over again and still enjoy it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 02 July 2015 at 5:53am | IP Logged | 12
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When I started attending conventions on a regular basis, back in the Seventies, I was disturbed by the "dark" thread that seemed to run thru a lot of fandom. I was assured -- mostly by Roger Stern -- that the fans who attended cons were somewhat atypical, and that the majority of our audience was casual readers who enjoyed the books and characters for what they were, and didn't devote a lot of mental energy (especially "dark" mental energy) to them.But, as I have noted before, as the marketplace has shrunk, the people who we used to consider fringe elements ("walking wounded" we called them) had not only seem undiminished in numbers, but have actually moved closer to the center. And, to make matters worse, a lot of current pros (or, at least, their attitudes) seem to be drawn from this group. There was a time when, quite literally, letters that would come in demanding that the characters age, or be more violent, or more sexual, or all of the above -- well, those letters would get a laugh around the Office, and then be consigned to the trash. Today, it often feels like such missives are considered source material!
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Topic Closed)
