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Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 1
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DAN isn't getting ANY negative comments.
Marvel's point of view on how to hanndle their characters is.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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"Let's see... hmm... what to do with Jane Foster? What to do? Jeez! She's so uninteresting! I dunno, hmm... wait! I got it! I'll make her THOR...! That's it! Ha ha! I'm a GREAT writer!"
Actually, Jason Aaron IS a great writer. There's a reason he gets Eisner noms, why his book SCALPED is lauded with praise, why his creator owned SOUTHERN BASTARDS has been optioned, and why his run on THOR has been called one of the best and up there with Simonson's.
And there is a reason why this new Jane Foster run of THOR has been connecting with fans, critics, and is doing great business for retailers. Because it's excellent!
Now, Michael, you've said that you haven't read it-- and that you don't intend to. So taking the time to insult it-- and to insult Jason's abilities as a writer speaks less about his run on THOR and way more towards the jaded cynicism that you can find online over in comic book message boards.
The story of the Jane Foster THOR isn't just "Wait! I got it! I'll make her Thor!" It's about what happened to Thor Odinson to make him unworthy so that not even he can lift his own hammer.
It's about Jane Foster who is dying of cancer-- is going through chemo treatments that could help her-- but every time the power of Thor is needed, she transforms into the Goddess of Thunder-- even though she knows when she changes back, it will reset her form to a point where all her treatments have become null-and-void. And she'll have to start again from scratch. Her sacrifice and her heroism are downright mythic-- and it's a very gripping read! One of the best comics currently on the stand.
But please, carry on and keep taking cheap, uninformed shots at the thing you're not even going to try.
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Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | 3
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IMO bottom line, if Marvel has to drastically CHANGE the characters that we have loved for all these years to keep selling comicbooks, then they should stop altogether.
Go out of out business, but go out with some fucking dignity.
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Lance Hill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2005
Posts: 991
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| And let's not forget my old favourite - 8 years went by without seeing the original Avengers together. |
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Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Ant-Man and Wasp?
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12767
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 5
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It's about Jane Foster who is dying of cancer-- is going through chemo treatments that could help her-- but every time the power of Thor is needed, she transforms into the Goddess of Thunder-- even though she knows when she changes back, it will reset her form to a point where all her treatments have become null-and-void. And she'll have to start again from scratch. Her sacrifice and her heroism are downright mythic-- and it's a very gripping read! One of the best comics currently on the stand.
***
My 7 year old boy is standing right next to me at this moment, by coincidence. No way in HELL would I ever offer this up to him. That alone makes it light years away from great COMICBOOK writing -- and that's, of course, what we're all discussing.
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Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 6
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Alex Ross tweeked Spider-Man's costume, fine whatever (I don't think eliminating the glove and boot lines are the right way to go)
BUT there should be WEBS on Spider-Man's costume.
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Matt Hawes
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16505
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 7
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"Superior Spider-Man" was a fun read, and if it had been presented as a story arc in the once-ongoing "Amazing Spider-Man" series, I don't think the outcry about Doc Ock replacing Peter Parker as Spider-Man would have been what it was. Most fans would have seen it for the temporary, but entertaining run that it was.
The thing is that there is no such thing as a regular ongoing series these days at Marvel or DC.Every series is basically started and restarted, and restarted again, like a dying patient being resuscitated time after time with a defibrillator. I believe such events and gimmickry are detrimental to the health of the industry.
The modern ongoing series can't seem to sustain a long term audience so we have situations where everything is presented as a big event, and series' are started up again and again at #1 to boost sales (like receiving another jolt from the "defibrillator") and that restart sometimes seems to signify a radical departure from what came before. The publishers like this because it creates a buzz, but then things die down eventually and another jolt is needed. How many jolts before the patient doesn't respond anymore? Isn't there a better way to keep things going?
Sadly, this is just a futile cycle that really only provokes the existing fanbase in action. I never saw a considerable gain in new comic book readers on a consistent basis due to these events, not enough to justify the tactics. Most of the so-called "new readers" were usually already comic book fans, they just weren't previously reading the particular comic before it was restarted.
If there were such a prominent increase in readership, would such sales events continue to be needed? It's obvious that the events can't sustain the increase in readership over the long haul without resorting to another gimmick. Gimmicks weren't needed for 60 years, not to the extent they are used these days, anyway. When the characters were written consistently and properly for the first several decades, they endured.
Would some fans bitch if Peter Parker were de-aged? Yeah, sure, probably as many as are bitching about a Peter Parker-turned-"Tony Stark." Fans do seem to bitch about any change, good or bad, deserved, or not. BUT, right now the comics industry is pretty much down to the hardcore fans, and the fans that would bitch about a de-aged Peter Parker would still likely buy the comic just as many that fuss about "Tony Stark" Parker will buy the comic when it comes out. So which is the best solution?
Should the publishers rely on gimmicks and events to drive the comics all the time?
I assume this upcoming series is just another story arc, and while we won't likely see a de-aged Peter in the comics anytime soon, I am thinking that a return, more or less, to the status quo will return once Dan is done telling his tale. That is, until the next event and restart of the title. My issue isn;t with Dan, it's with the people at the publishers who are in control and are content to rely on gimmicks and events.
On the subject of "The Simpsons":
Yeah, it's best days critically-speaking seem behind them according to most critics and long-term fans. However, using that as some sort of justification for massive changes in comics characters kind of falls flat upon examination. After all, FOX certainly seems happy enough that the series is continuing for the next couple of years. That tells me the ratings have been strong in this series that has now lasted a quarter century, which would seem to suggest that keep Bart, Lisa, Maggie, et al, at the status quo has worked for the network and the series.
Marvel and DC would likely kill to have the equivalent in sales to those ratings for its' titles these days. And, I am sure the bean counters at those publishers wouldn't care if the critics felt a title's best days was behind it, if the sales proved that a considerable amount of fans still was buying the titles. With FOX, it seems "The Simpsons" is still making them good money, and the formula hasn't changed in all these years. So, what does that say?
On another note:
Dan Slott, you said you would make more money in advertising than writing comics. Not long after "Kingdom Come" in the late 1990s' there was a report in the "Sunday Parade" that Mark Waid made $200,000 as a comic book writer. He was a the top of his profession then, but so are you these days, writing "Amazing Spider-Man." I am sincerely asking, has the market been hit that hard that you, the writer of Marvel's most popular hero, would make more money in advertising? If so, doesn't that show the industry is in trouble?
Anyway, I am sure Dan's new "Amazing Spider-Man" series will be well-written. And I do think it's likely a fun storyline being hyped as an event, making it sound more earth-shattering than it is in terms of change to the status quo for the sake of publicity to generate sales. Marvel doesn't mind if they stir a bee's nest if they think it will produce honey, after all.
It's nothing against Dan personally, I just wish Marvel (and DC) would stop relying on gimmicks, figure out how to appeal to a truly new fanbase without ruining the established characters. And I doubt that Dan's story is the one ruining the character. There were previous stories by others that did that ("One More Day" deserves the scorn it gets).
Anyway, it's sad that most comics titles barely crack 100,000 in sales (and rarely do with variant covers and gimmicks these days). and sadder still that those titles not in the top ten struggle to reach 50,000 in sales. Clearly, there are problems that need sorting out in the industry still. I keep hoping for the best, but it looks like the publishers are content to keep riding the same treadmill over and over again.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 8
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"My 7 year old boy is standing right next to me at this moment, by coincidence. No way in HELL would I ever offer this up to him."
And if that's where your metric is, you shouldn't. I also wouldn't recommend having him read issues of the Punisher. Or Wolverine. Or Deadpool-- or what have you. The Marvel books have ratings on them, much like movie ratings, to help readers find books that appropriate for different ages. It's why titles like MS. MARVEL or SILVER SURFER are probably better fits.
"That alone makes it light years away from great COMICBOOK writing -- and that's, of course, what we're all discussing."
Yes. Because if your 7 year old kid is the metric, then obviously SAGA is light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing. WATCHMEN is light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing. DARK KNIGHT is light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing. LOVE & ROCKETS and HELLBOY and scenes from NEXT MEN and HEAVY METAL and VELVET and COWARD and WALKING DEAD and NEMESIS and some of the best comics that have come out of this entire medium are light years away from great COMIC BOOK writing.
C'mon. Long story short: You took a cheap shot at Jason Aaron's work on a book you've never even read, and I called you out on it. Don't do that internet-thing where you have to be right-no-matter-what. That doesn't lead to any kind of productive conversation at all.
"Dan, I know you are getting a lot of negative comments here and respect to you for remaining engaged."••• "Seriously? I suggest you raise by several notches the level of accomplishment needed to win your respect!"
•••
I don't think I've said anything meriting that level of disdain here. But it's your room, your rules. But I gotta admit, as one of the old Faithful 50, and a pretty big fan, that one kinda stings. :-(
Ah well. Probably a good time to take a break.
Edited by Dan Slott on 01 July 2015 at 2:41pm
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6510
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 9
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Dan: And there is a reason why this new Jane Foster run of THOR has been
connecting with fans, critics, and is doing great business for retailers
***
Th current insular community of fans and "critics" likes it and buys it in
what's considered "great" numbers today. But should this seem to you like
such an accomplishment when the entire tea pot of the industry is so tiny?
That's not really apples to apples when compared with Lee/Kirby or
Simonson's run.
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Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 10
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Michael Penn wrote:
"This alone makes it light years away from great COMICBOOK writing..."
Exactly right Michael.
It may be well written and gripping but it simply isn't the kind of COMICBOOK stuff that captivates children. (Middle-aged children perhaps)
The current Marvel wants angst not whimsy.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 11
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Dan: I don't think I've said anything meriting that level of disdain here. But
it's your room, your rules.
**
Someone ought to point out JB's comment had no judgment-- disdain-wise
or other-wise --except to say that coming here and posting against-the-
grain is not much of an accomplishment --for ANYONE.
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Michael Roberts
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | 12
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Peter turning into Tony Stark is at least a logical future for him, if not one readers needed to see.
After the JMS run, which involved Peter discovering that he was a Spider-Totem; becoming a high school teacher who managed to keep his job despite always being occupied as Spider-Man; hanging out/fighting with the love children of Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy; having his eye plucked out and nearly beaten to death, resulting in his "Spider" side taking over and granting him new powers*, which enables him to bite and rip out the throat of his enemy; being able to molt his injured body, allowing him to heal all his injuries; becoming Tony Stark's protege and foolishly allowing Stark to convince him to reveal his identity; and making a literal deal with the devil to undo his marriage in order to save his Aunt May after she was shot because Peter foolishly allowed Stark to convince him to reveal his identity**, I don't feel Peter having a successful tech company is what is going to break Spider-Man.
* And during this time, Peter manages to drag Aunt May and Mary Jane wearing old Iron Man armors to Latveria to take a joyride in Doom's time machine.
** Technically, I think it was MJ that made the deal while Peter was trying to decide.
Oh, and somehow during all of this, Spider-Man also has the time to be a full-time Avenger.
This reminds me Dan, did you have to bring back all the Spider-Totem stuff with Silk and Spider-Verse? I mean, I enjoy both, but I did not ever need to see the Spider-Totem stuff again. Although I did appreciate that in the end, it was less about Peter being the mystic chosen one and more about funky time travel and predestination paradox.
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Topic Closed)
