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Adam Hutchinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4502
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 8:53am | IP Logged | 1
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QUOTE:
Tossing out the baby AND the bath water every
couple of years seems rather an extreme form of
"recognition." |
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I guess I don't follow.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 2
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"Why does anyone have to be like Stark?"
When questions start falling in this zone, you have to ask:
Why tell any story?
This is the story, as the writer, that I'm interested in telling. I know that sounds basic, but that's at the heart of any story worth telling-- that the author is spinning a yarn that they're invested in. (You don't want the opposite, right? You don't want a writer telling a story they couldn't care less about.)
"I can only speak for myself, here, but I know who Peter Parker is and he isn't Tony Stark..."
Exactly. That's the point. What you're saying is, Peter shouldn't be doing this. That he'd be in a world he's not prepared for. That this seems really out of his wheelhouse.
Why that sounds like there'd be conflicts, complications, and strange outcomes! That Peter would be put in situations that are unfamiliar to him and that he's never really experienced before... in 50+ years worth of Spider-Man comics...
Hey... That almost sounds like those things could lead to... all-new and all-different kinds of stories. :-D
Everyone from Pixar to Joss Whedon preaches the gospel of taking your characters and putting them out of their comfort zone. Putting them where they feel (or the audience feels) they shouldn't be is one of the best ways to get to the core of who they really are.
Edited by Dan Slott on 01 July 2015 at 9:14am
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12767
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 3
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If telling Spider-Man stories is boring unless the character is radically changed, why not just go tell other stories about other characters?
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David Allen Perrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3582
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 4
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"Everyone from Pixar to Joss Whedon preaches the gospel of taking your characters and putting them out of their comfort zone. Putting them where they feel (or the audience feels) they shouldn't be is one of the best ways to get to the core of who they really are."
Can't you take characters out of their comfort zone WITHOUT changing who they are fundamentally?
Seems like thats the tougher, more creative task to tackle.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 5
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"If telling Spider-Man stories is boring unless the character is radically changed, why not just go tell other stories about other characters?"
Oy. :-D I'm not saying it's boring, I'm saying that this is something I'm interested in and I believe it will lead to exciting Spider-Man stories.
If we were in bizarro world and this conversation were flipped, I could easily put the same kind of negative spin onto your side of it and ask, 'Why are you so interested in Spider-Man stories that play it safe?'
"Can't you take characters out of their comfort zone WITHOUT changing who they are fundamentally?"
Peter Parker will BE Peter Parker. That's the point. His character will remain his character. But you're not asking about his character, you're asking about his occupation and his status quo. You're asking why can't we just-please-stay-inside-the-preestablished-lines? And in the long run, that's a sure fire path towards predictability.
Again, a lot of your concerns are about a book that has only been teased and hasn't been released yet. There's still a first issue to read through (or hear about from others who've read it) before any real conclusions can be fairly reached, right?
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Antonio Diniz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 53
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 6
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Jason Scott wrote:
| I quite like the idea of Peter using his smarts to make some actual gains for once. I know there's a tendency to always want to paint him as that eternal high school loser figure, but too much doom and gloom can get really wearying after a while. |
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John Byrne wrote:
| And you know what's supposed to happen when it gets "wearying"? YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO MOVE ON. You are NOT supposed to selfishly demand that the comics and the characters change to fit YOUR needs. Nor are the writers, artists and editors supposed to pander to the ever diminishing pool of people who make such demands. |
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Are Spider-Man's adventures meant to be endlessly gloomy?
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2414
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 7
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IIRC Gerry Conway quit writing Spider-Man because "it got too depressing".
I know, I quit reading Spider-Man because it got too depressing.
Not because I outgrew reading comics. Thank the stars for my copies of the essentials.
I guess one solution to the readers who hang on too long, is to read the old stuff because it was better. I know I read Sherlock Holmes stories all the time and never wish for new stories.
Edited by Jesus Garcia on 01 July 2015 at 9:51am
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12767
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 8
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But Mr. Slott, when you ask "why tell any story," that begs instead of answers the question why tell a Spider-Man story that radically changes the character's essentials because those essentials are uninteresting to you personally instead of just going off and telling stories about other characters whose essentials do interest you. Comicbook characters have gone on for decades without radical changes featuring in new types of tales, unfamiliar situations, showcasing all-new, all-different experiences. That Spider-Man has half a century of history doesn't mean that the character as Lee-Ditko devised in him in his essence is played out! If someone today can't figure out what to do with that character, then move on, all for the better. In great part this also has again to do with the loss of an all-new, all-different kid audience every few years. To a new reader of 8-10 years of age, he doesn't nor should he care a whit about the fifty years of previous Spider-Man stories: nothing about the essentials of who Spider-Man is, as Lee-Ditko created him, could possibly be uninteresting to him!
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Philippe Negrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2644
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 9
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I've read hundreds of Spider-Man pages. The panel that comes to mind first and before all the others ? When Spider-Man can't afford to buy a burger and after saving the diner owner, he gets one free but is still hungry.
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Dan Slott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 45
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 10:10am | IP Logged | 10
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"But Mr. Slott, when you ask "why tell any story," that begs instead of answers the question why tell a Spider-Man story that radically changes the character's essentials because those essentials are uninteresting to you personally..."
Couldn't be farther from the truth. I love telling Spider-Man stories. I love playing around with his supporting cast, his villains, and all the wonderful trappings of his world.
But if you clamp a wall down around that-- if you ONLY stay within THOSE bounds-- you are NOT doing your job in keeping the character fresh and entertaining. You're not inviting readers in to a world where ANYTHING could happen at any moment-- where EVERYTHING is at stake.
The points you're making now are pretty much in lock step with similar complaints fans were making BEFORE Superior Spider-Man started. "Why are you doing this?! This isn't Spider-Man?! Think of the children!"
And (sorry if you weren't a fan or didn't enjoy Superior but...) it worked!
Fans were invested! New readers jumped on board! People "hadn't-seen-this-before-in-a-Spider-Man-comic" and they desperately wanted to know (twice a month)... "What's going to happen next?!"
That is the most fun pool to be swimming around in! That's the danger and the electricity-- on a storyteller level-- of being Scheherazade! Hell, Stan Lee's people gave me a call one day, because STAN wanted to know what was going to happen next! Through out that run we GAINED readership-- we powered through the year as Marvel's best selling ongoing-- and we KEPT those readers when Peter Parker returned. (So for everyone here wringing their hands over "why aren't more people reading comics-- oh no, comics are dying"-- here's a case where we did something that got readership to drastically rise!)
And in the scenario you've brought up, about the new reader of 8-10? We brought those into the fold as well with Superior! And we did NOT see that one coming. Even though you think that reader "doesn't care a whit about fifty years of previous Spider-Man stories"-- those kids KNOW Spider-Man. They've seen the Raimi movies on Netflix, they've seen the Webb movies in the theaters, and they've DVR'ed the hell out of the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon on Disney XD. They KNOW what Spider-Man is supposed to be. And they're excited when you change that up!
Edited by Dan Slott on 01 July 2015 at 10:15am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133555
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 11
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I am WEARY of writers who hide behind "story."Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko -- just three folk who were able to turn their characters upside-down and inside-out EVERY MONTH, and yet somehow reset everything to where it had been before when the next arc began. Everything doesn't have to be the aftermath of the death of Phoenix, where nobody could see even something as commonplace as a stoplight without being reminded of Jean.
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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2081
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| Posted: 01 July 2015 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 12
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"Are Spider-Man's adventures meant to be endlessly gloomy?"****
There is probably a better word than "gloomy", but Spider-Man's adventures are meant to endlessly be Spider-Man adventures.
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Topic Closed)
