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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 1
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Look at those covers. Aside from the X-MEN cover, every one features characters who are instantly recognizable as being the same characters from the mid-60s (or the 40s, in the case of Captain America). They are all still perfectly on-model.Someone should pull six covers from today's era for comparison. Can the same be said? If, not, WHY? What makes 2015 so very, very different from 1982-83? Or, say, 1966? Is it really just as simple as a case of the lunatics running the asylum, or have times really changed? •• Redesigning characters can be the lazy way to go. Not always, obviously, but when we pour a lot of prima donna writers and artists into the mix, it becomes so much easier to CHANGE a character than to invest the effort to keep that character on-model. I've often told of how, when I was assigned to write and drawn FANTASTIC FOUR, one of the first things I did was look at all the Kirby drawings of Galactus, and from this distill a consistent look for him. It would have been a whole lot easier to redesign Galactus, but, of course, that was not even an option then. It was still more about the song than the singer.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 6:12am | IP Logged | 2
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Charles, I confess I am very nostalgic for that era of comics.
Consider, those titles featured one shot or 2-3 issue 'epics', were easy to get into, and didn't focus on placating vocal minorities.
Good days indeed!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133334
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 3
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…and didn't focus on placating vocal minorities.•• That was when the fringe was still the fringe. Before the shrinking center brought them closer and closer to the mainstream. Let's be honest: comics have always been about pandering. The very first comics were reprints of the Sunday Funnies from the newspaper, and those were created because a market was seen. This set in motion a business model of "Do More of That." Look at what the public demands, and make more. Wolverine did not come to dominate Marvel because he was an UNpopular character. Doctor Strange has not struggled to hold onto his own title because he is in huge demand. Pandering is very much the name of the game. We have been fortunate, over the decades comics have been in existence, that some truly major talent has passed thru these halls, and the pandering has often taken the form of truly breathtaking works of art. But it's still a business. (In fact, it is a self-declared INDUSTRY. Think about that!) As brilliant as the Thomas/Adams/Palmer X-MEN might have been, it still got canceled. As purely awful as many of the proto-Image books were, they still sold thru the roof -- and prompted the Publishers to "Do More of That!" The American superhero comic has crashed and burned. What we are seeing out of Marvel and DC is pieces of the wreckage bouncing down the runway.
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Chuck Wells
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1244
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 4
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The overall "look" being discussed here seems very much to have originated within the independent comics arena and that has now successfully shifted over to the mainstream publishers. To each his own, but that being the case, a certain anti-superhero mindset underlies some of the current visual interpretations or designs - at least in my estimation.
At this point this type of thing seems more change for changes sake to me, and there is no reason to get bent out of shape with these versions. They won't be around long enough to warm to anyones palate. Allow these looks a season or two of this year, and then another event will shift things elsewhere, supplanting one take for another.
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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8594
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 5
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To me Marvel pretty much died once they decided to
mess around with Spider-Man and did the Clone Saga.
One More Day/Brand New Day was the final nail in the
coffin.
Before I got rid of most of my comics (either sold
them or gave them away, but held onto a few), I
believe I owned at most 3 comics with Spider-Man in
them that came out post-BND. NONE of them actually a
Spider-Man title. The issue of Avengers where Cap
meets Aunt May and a couple of others....
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Ronald Joseph
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1784
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 9:18am | IP Logged | 6
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Saw Clea in half?
Don't you mean Cleave her in half? Nyuk nyuk. I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
That "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut" story from The Amzing Spider-Man cover Charles posted is still one of my all-time favorite comic book stories.
I remember actually being afraid for Spider-Man as a very palpable feeling of worry and dread came over him. He really couldn't do anything and no one was around to help.
And that ending?! Black Tom's dialogue really drove it home. Epic storytelling.
*edited to change "Matt" to "Charles" - oops!
Edited by Ronald Joseph on 09 June 2015 at 9:21am
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Ronald Joseph
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1784
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 7
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Nowadays we get treated to various "shocking moments" of Aunt May having sex in some form.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6430
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 8
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JB: The American superhero comic has crashed and burned. What we are seeing out of Marvel and DC is pieces of the wreckage bouncing down the runway.
**
Metaphor of the year award nominee!
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Olav Bakken
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 June 2014
Posts: 241
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 9
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Making comics is all about making the reader feel connected with the character, even if it's just a fictional person. Once the reader lose that connection to an established figure, much of the interest goes away.
A superhero character is in general what appears to be a normal human with an alter ego. That alter ego is part of the character. What we see today is how established alter egos are transferred to new characters.
Iron Man, Wolverine, Hulk, Captain America and Thor etc: "Let's transfer these alter egos to some other characters just to give it a fresh feel."
Or: "Let's do something about established characters without an alter ego". This already started in the 90s, if not earlier. Johnny Blaze used to be a nice guy, even when he was Ghost Rider. Then he was cured and became a normal human. To make him more interesting he was "reborn" as a grumpy badboy with a big gun and a 5 o'clock shadow, ponytail, cigarette in his mouth and sunglasses. He looked liked Johnny Blaze, at least to some degree, he was Johnny Blaze, he had the same backstory as Johnny Blaze, he just didn't feel like Johnny Blaze.
Or Blade. I got to know him through Tomb of Dracula. The vampires in that titles felt like something out of a Hammer horror movie. When he was given his own titles some years later, he was a tattooed action hero, and the vampires felt pretty much the way they were portrayed in the Blade movies.
As for the movie; Blade was changed from a human being immune to vampire bites to a mutant vampire that was immune to sunlight. The silver haired Deacon Frost was turned into a young punk who could walk in the sunlight as long as he used an efficient sunburn cream, and the tortured vampire Hannibal King ended up as a wisecracking normal human being. Which proves that the movies are not meant for the comic book readers, and the comics are merely used as inspiration in a lot of productions.
(And didn't Jubilee turn into a vampire a while ago? It remains to see what happens to her after the new Secret Wars.)
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David Allen Perrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3582
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 10
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"They won't be around long enough to warm to anyones palate."
I used to think that not long ago. But with the almighty movie industry at least party empowering these radical changes I'm not so sure anymore.
Is it so hard to believe that the comics mindset that said "Hey! Let's make Thor a woman for real this time!" won't somehow make its way to Hollywood when it comes time to let go of Chris Hemsworth?
I think Marvel is bold/stupid enough to call (my/our) bluff on this because this isn't about sales of comics and pleasing readers anymore.
The old days of comics was like taking aim with a sniper rifle at 50 yards. The target (a dedicated audience who knows the characters inside and out and expects things a certain way) was clear and specific and with careful aim you will score a hit.
Today's comics are like firing a shotgun loaded with buckshot at about 20 feet away. Careful aim really isn't needed. You WILL hit something.
So Thor is Jane, Cap is Sam, Wolverine is a girl and so on. And the 'new' audience is so widespread (and disengaged) that SOMEBODY is gonna like it.
Edited by David Allen Perrin on 09 June 2015 at 1:35pm
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Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 11
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The American superhero comic has crashed and burned. What we are seeing out of Marvel and DC is pieces of the wreckage bouncing down the runway.
***
Perfectly said!
JB, I'm in the middle of a Facebook discussion with some friends on the current state of Marvel and DC. Do you mind if I quote you there?
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 12
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Remember the slogan, "Make Mine Marvel!" ?
If they redid it the same way as their new line-up, it would be
(make mine marvel)
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Topic Closed)
