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Kip Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 01 March 2011 Posts: 2880
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 1
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I remember back in HS, a friend wondered why they drew Superman with blue hair. I said I think it is supposed to be black but for some reason they can't shade black properly when they printed. No one ever told us what the conventions were, so we had to figure it ourselves.
Neither one of us are artists so we didn't look at things with artists' eyes. For ten/eleven year old me, I didn't see a difference in coloring between blue furry Beast and Black Panther's costume (in the 70s). I nearly always read his costume as blue, despite the name.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 2
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I think the blue highlights had overwhelmed the costume by the time of the AVENGERS cover Steve posted. This is how I recall JB's black-and-white FF uniforms:
![](uploads/StephenRobinson/2015-05-07_163947_fantastic-four-265-she-hulk-joins-the-fantastic-four.jpg)
The only difference between the AVENGERS cover FF uniforms and the classic FF uniforms is the white gloves and boots, which misses the point, I think.
Another example is Batman's costume in B:TAS and Justice League (black with blue highlights) compared to his costume in THE NEW BATMAN ADVENTURES (black with gray highlights).
JB jokes about The Captain's uniform being white. Sadly, that's what happened to Storm on the X-MEN cartoon!
This isn't just a comic-book convention. It is how some shades of black look in the light.
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Brian J Nelson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 26 August 2014 Location: United States Posts: 365
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 3
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"It amazes me that people can read comics for years and years and years and somehow not grasp the simplest conventions!"
Lol, it's probably because 9-year-olds don't get on message boards or forums to have such discussions, so something just sticks in the mind of a child. Taking the picture of She Hulk above as an example, as I kid I thought her hair was dark green and her costume was dark blue. I really didn't (and still don't) give it much thought beyond that because that wasn't what was important. I didn't question or discuss it with other. It was the amazing adventures you shared with us that was so important. But if you ever want to know why a kid that age thinks like they do, I think it would be hysterical to see you convince my 9-year-old that the costume is black.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2322
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 4
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Same issue with Spider-Man. The earliest Ditko version really seemed to be red and black, but soon he was going back and forth between black and blue--sometimes even on the same page. By the time Romita took over, it seemed clear that Spider-Man's costume was red and blue. I loved Romita's issues, but there was always the nagging tug in the back of my head that I wished the blue areas were blacker.
I think we have to allow for different kinds of black. JB's versions of both the FF and his Ditko-ish Spider-Man are wearing blue-black. Sometimes, you can drop the blue highlights altogether and they still look good, but I imagine if a bright light were shined on the the costumes they would look blue, and that is fine with me. Some colorists substitute dark grey for blue highlights in hair and that can look okay, but I really don't think anybody would want the FF or Spider-Man colored grey-black.
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Nathan Greno Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 20 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 9154
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 5
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Since their first appearance, I saw the "new" FF uniforms as black.
![](uploads/NathanGreno/2015-05-07_185234_FF256_Costumes2.jpg)
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Chris Basken Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 21 January 2012 Location: United States Posts: 120
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | 6
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Spider-Man's costume is red & black.
JB's FF costumes are black & white.
The Beast has black fur.
Batman's costume is mostly black & gray.
That's just how my brain sees them.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132639
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 7
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In real life, I once bought a Navy surplus jacket that looked black to me. Then, when I got home, I had an argument with my dad who insisted my jacket was Navy blue.I think of that when this topic comes up. There really are shades of "black" that reflect different highlights. ••• To complicate matters, comics are full of colors not found in Nature. Batwoman in the Fifties worse a costume that was black with yellow highlights. Daredevil was occasionally black with red highlights. Storm wore a shiny black costume with white highlights, and animators made it white (even after asking me!). In my 3D modeling, I have leaned to use the specular setting to vice shiny black objects highlights they'd be most unlikely to have in real life. It's all about playing the game.
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 07 May 2015 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | 8
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46kXH6GGtT0
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15881
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Posted: 08 May 2015 at 5:26am | IP Logged | 9
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I first encountered the 'new' FF costumes in Secret Wars, where they looked black.
Take a look at this cover:
There's no reason to think Reed's costume is any less black than Spider-Man's (and funny that there's never been any confusion over the colour of the black Spider-Man costume, despite the blue highlights).
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Steve Adelson Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 24 May 2009 Location: United States Posts: 1204
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Posted: 08 May 2015 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 10
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Peter, I think Stephen nailed it; it's all about getting the highlights right and not overwhelming the uniform. On that Avengers cover, the uniforms looks blue, and the blacks are shadow. It may be intended to be really shiny black (I guess?), but that's not how it comes across.
![](uploads/SteveAdelson/2015-05-08_074905_267.jpg)
In retrospect, JB was pretty clear at the time - this cover being a particularly obvious example of not-blue - but when highlights were added my young mind still said "blue". Over time, it looks like the highlights lightened up and reinforced that perception... Compare the Avengers cover with Captain America's uniform in the panel Nathan posted; they're not that far off.
BTW, #267 is just screaming for a reimagination.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132639
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Posted: 08 May 2015 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 11
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There are two things that happen, and they usually come down to inkers. In many cases, characters went from black to blue because of deadline pressures. Black spaces take time to fill in. Empty spaces don't. Every minute saved when chasing deadlines can be important. And sometimes the inkers were given what today would be called breakdowns, with no blacks spotted. Sometimes inkers ink just that, and we get coloring books. And there is that extra annoyance on top of these, and that's when mistakes become carved in stone. "This is how it was done last time!" "But last time it was wrong!" "But this is how it was done last time!" (And Brawndo has electrolytes...)
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Nathan Greno Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 20 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 9154
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Posted: 08 May 2015 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | 12
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This one confuses me...
What color is this Black Widow costume?
![](uploads/NathanGreno/2015-05-08_174413_201-1-1.jpg)
![](uploads/NathanGreno/2015-05-08_173140_Daredevil_188-06.jpg)
Edited by Nathan Greno on 08 May 2015 at 5:45pm
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