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Topic: Q for JB: Superman & aging (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Brian O'Neill
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Joined: 13 November 2013
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Posted: 14 January 2015 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 1  

Brian Hague:
Here's the thing: There are those who keep track. Let them. That's what they like doing. The world needs the occasional George Olgeshevkey Index Series to keep things interesting. What's interesting about them is that they do look at the form from the wrong end of the telescope and everything looks kind of cool, all small and intensely miniaturized that way. They're fun. But the folks who write them are not your audience.

•••

JB:

Unfortunately, those indexes exceeded their mandate. Not content to simply list the issues and stories in chronological order, they tried to make the pieces fit together, putting a story into "context" with stories in other series. ("This occurs between issues 127 and 128 of CAPTAIN FONEBONE..."). And once Marvel started publishing the indexes, it effectively canonized what had been only fan opinion.

I was somewhat amused by  the Marvel/Olshevsky indexes' minute attention to detail(seemingly panel-by-panel!), and the pointing out of every 'topical reference'(along the lines of,"Spider-Man's wisecrack on page 7, about Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, and John Dean, should not be considered canonical". Gee, thanks!)

I recall Eclipse Comics used Olshevsky's same 'template'  in its line of DC indexes I only remember seeing one-shots indexing CRISIS and the crossovers, and several issues for JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA. Eclipse made no attempt to print full plot summaries, so they covered more issues than a typical Marvel index. The JLA index made no attempt to figure out the continuity of the members, but did so for guest stars(so if Alfred or Lois Lane turned up briefly in a JLA story, we knew exactly which issues that story was 'in between').



Edited by Brian O'Neill on 14 January 2015 at 4:23pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 16 January 2015 at 2:13am | IP Logged | 2  

It seems to me that there are basically three options, and each is appropriate for three types of fiction.

NO AGING/NO TIME PASSING--Works for lighter and/or more cartoonish stuff like ARCHIE, SIMPSONS, PEANUTS, etc.

AGING/REAL TIME--Works for TV shows and movie series (expected and even necessitated by the aging of the actors involved), novels (especially epics that might take a character from birth to old age and death), and even some comics like SAVAGE DRAGON (I'm normally opposed to real time passing in comics, but here it keeps things fresh and helps Larsen not repeat himself).

MARVEL TIME/LIMITED AGING--In shared universes like DC and Marvel's, where the stories waver in varying degrees between realistic and cartoonish, it seems reasonable that the compromise of limited aging/time passing should be used and characters can age (and grow) a little. Like moderates in politics, it won't please the extremes on either side, but it also seems like it would offend the least number of people (and cause the least number of storytelling problems).
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 16 January 2015 at 4:56am | IP Logged | 3  

Comic characters like Batman and Spider-Man slowly aging doesn't
really work either because those years still accumulate.
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Trevor Smith
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Posted: 16 January 2015 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 4  

Like Wallace, I can't buy "limited" aging either. Take
a character like Batman - how many years have passed in
the 75 he's been published? Still enough to be
problematical - Spider-Man has only been published for
around 50 years, and there's a subset of fans that want
him to have gone from high school to grown up and
married in that time. Tack on another 25 years and
where would he bet??

Again, The Simpsons - I don't know of any fans that are
crying about Bart et al not growing up.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 January 2015 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 5  

What used to occur, decades before anyone thought to impose "continuity" on the stories was a sort of organic change in the characters, resetting elements in their history, retooling them for the next few years to come, all without any drastic, conscious attempt to "reboot" them.

The Superman and Batman who debuted in the late thirties didn't last very long, story-wise. Within just a few years, changes were wrought in their temperments, visuals, and methods that rendered the then-current versions all but incompatible. The thick, stocky, often-comedic Superman of the post-war years was not the lean, chisel-featured anarchist in Roman sandals we started off with. The change between the two was gradual yet definite. 

There was no intent to "stack" the stories on top of one another, accruing history along the way. Superboy was introduced and for years continued as a separate entity and strip, never altering the already-established backstory of Superman. Despite their supposed premise of being the same individual, Superman never referred to his childhood adventures in costume or met the adult versions of his old rafting buddies. No continuity between the two was established or intended.

Soon, as the Superman Office began to hire more science-fiction writers and the need to make Superman's adventures "bigger" and more deserving of such a popular phenomenon, robots and spacemen began to appear. Kryptonite came onto the scene and Superman finally discovered his own origins, tracking a piece of Green K back to its point of origin and seeing Jor-El for the first time. "That man looks more like me than I do!"

Once Krypton comes into play as a valid storytelling element, one that the host of other comic characters running around couldn't claim, the tone and character of the feature changed once again and one would be hard put to say that this month's Superman was exactly the same character as the one who'd been around five years ago. This transitional phase was short-lived as all too quickly the more familiar Weisinger era came to the fore and accumulated history and continuity played a much larger role in the stories being told.

Once elements like the "package from Krypton" and the "memory restorer" were introduced, Superman needed a fortress to contain all of the numerous treasures from home he could now hoard. Pets began to appear. Additional survivors from Krypton soon began lining up for repeat appearances in the books. Superman had met the occasional Kryptonian before, but they didn't stick around, neither literally nor in the memories of the characters.

Now they did. Now Superboy began to play host to kids who would later grow up to play significant roles in his adult life. And he knew they would because he had a Kryptonian Future-Scope to tell him they would. Now all the stories began to fit together and readers were expected to know that Silver Kryptonite couldn't be real because it wasn't one of the ones we'd been told about and given all the rules to. 

Supergirl showed up and stayed. There had been Supergirls before her, but no one remembered them (Well, E. Nelson Bridwell did, and reprinted their adventures so the rest of us could know about them, too, but no one in-story ever mentioned to Kara that she'd once had a predecessor Jimmy had wished on a magic totem stick to bring to life.) Now, no only did Linda have her own consistent existence, but a whole host of supporting characters and continuing adventures... 

Clearly this Superman and related assortment of titles was not the one from the Fifties. Or the Forties. Or the Thirties. Again, no hard reboot necessary. The feature simply grew and changed over time. No one had to say, "This story counts!" and "This one doesn't!" Change was built into the equation and there wasn't really any sense that Superman had to answer for having been around for 30 years.

With Marvel on everyone's mind and continuity the raging passion of every fan worth his salt in the 70's, the changes the Schwartz office made to the character couldn't erase or directly countermand the 60's Superman exactly. They just kind of ignored stuff like Comet the Super-Horse and didn't bring up potentially discordant elements unless the story called for them, and then, hey, the writers had been fans of all that stuff back in the day. Why not bring Krypto in and see what's been happening with the old guy? Give him his own strip in Superman Family and see what happens...

Seventies Superman for the first time couldn't simply slough off the accumulated history from his previous decade and sadly, the innocently intended silliness of much of it doomed him to him first "hard restart." 

Since then, nothing has happened organically. Everything has been viewed through the lens of the reboot, and the creators keep pushing that button until their fingernails and our eyes are seeping blood. 

Once upon a time, things like Secret Identity, Birthright, or the Lee Nu52 guy would have either come about in context with the story or not at all. Superman would just be younger this month. No explanation necessary. "B-But then... Did this story happen? Did that one?" If it doesn't directly impact this month's, I'd say it doesn't matter overly much. Generally, each issue should tell you what you need to know... "B-But does it all fit together?? Do I need to buy eight more comics this month to find out how important yours is to the whole line? After this, it's no more changes, right? This time it's forever, right? Promise me!!"

You know, we took a bad corner there somewhere...

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