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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 1
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And most of all, if the question is who would win in a fight between two characters, it negates the whole exercise if both characters do not start on the same level playing field. In other words, they've heard of each other, each has some sense of how the other operates.----------------------------- Why is it not a level playing field if neither have heard of the other before?
That seems the definition of a level playing field -- as opposed to the trump card of Batman, in advance, building a device that negates a power of his opponent in a way that has never been demonstrated in any comic before?
To me, a level playing field mean no special caveats.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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And most of all, if the question is who would win in a fight between two characters, it negates the whole exercise if both characters do not start on the same level playing field. In other words, they've heard of each other, each has some sense of how the other operates.----------------------------- Why is it not a level playing field if neither have heard of the other before? That seems the definition of a level playing field -- as opposed to the trump card of Batman, in advance, building a device that negates a power of his opponent in a way that has never been demonstrated in any comic before? To me, a level playing field mean no special caveats. ••• Once again, it's the nature of the beast. What's being posited here is not a hero meeting a previously unknown adversary. We're talking about two well-known heroes who, if we don't invoke fannish contrivances, would live in the same world, and would have heard of each other. (When Spider-Man met Superman, his reaction was not "Who the heck are you??" or "Holy cow! You're REAL??") William Goldman, describing the art of screen writing, says that one should try to begin each story as deep in as possible. Same for each scene. In a case like this, anything that requires moving our starting point further and further back from the actual story, like invoking interdimensional portals, and explaining them, is automatically a bad idea. And, also as noted, since it places one of the characters at a disadvantage, it negates the original question.
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 3
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I understand what you mean, Peter.
In the sheer respect of pitting abilities against each other, it may arguably be just as level if Spider-Man has no idea what contrivances Batman carries in his utility belt as long as Batman has no idea that Spider-Man has web shooters and "Spider Sense." However, even then this concept of level cuts toward the unfair: well, if only Batman had KNOWN... if only Spider-Man had KNOWN...
Isn't it arguably the most level if each character knows as much about the other's abilities as reasonably imaginable in a given context so as to "max out" what they can do and thus truly test how each would fare against the other?
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Brian O'Neill
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 4
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One thing that I disliked about the second Superman-Spider-Man meeting was that Shooter played it so that common crooks in New York were reacting to Superman with disbelief ('Holy...! The bullets just bounce off!')Even NYPD cops acted as though Superman were just some 'nut from out of town in a blue suit'. He also had Metropolis police shooting at Spider-Man 'because he's a wanted criminal', a Spiderverse plot point that was (thankfully) killed before the end of the '70s.
Edited by Brian O'Neill on 16 January 2015 at 3:05pm
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 5
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Isn't it arguably the most level if each character knows as much about the other's abilities as reasonably imaginable in a given context so as to "max out" what they can do and thus truly test how each would fare against the other?---------------------------------------------- Yes, arguably so. And I'm willing to grant this ground in our little discussion.
So let's say Batman is well aware of Spider-Man and Spider-Man is well aware of Batman.
I still maintain that Batman coming up with a device or gas to nullify Spider-Man's spider-sense is special pleading.
For this to happen:
- In the short time that teenager Spider-Man has been around -- let's say a couple of years -- Batman needs to have observed him enough to have realised he has some special extra sense (and I would argue that Peter Parker selling his photos of Spider-Man to the Bugle implies there is not a lot of actual media footage of Spider-Man)
- He needs to have deduced how this sense works
- He needs to have deemed it a valuable use of his time to have come up with a way to nullify the Spider-Sense against the unlikely contingency of facing this hero in battle -- as opposed to spending this time in his one-man war on crime in Gotham.
Furthermore, I would argue that Batman being allowed to nullify any of Spider-Man's powers is against the idea of the fight being on a level playing field. Why does he stop there? Why not nullify ALL his power and then he would definitely win?
Batman is the world's greatest detective, a highly-trained martial artist and acrobat, a wily tactician, has a lot of clever gadgets in his utility belt and access to vast resources and has the power of fear over criminals, who are a cowardly and superstitious lot. This is his core.
The idea of him being a Doctor Doom-style contingency planner has sort of crept in to some degree -- largely thanks to his use of kryptonite against Superman in DKR, I would say -- but when I look at Batman in,say, the Joker's Five Way Revenge, I don't see this supreme master planner at all.
Spider-Man strength, speed, agility are all far in excess of Batman's. He has a special sense to let give him advance-warning of any imminent danger. He has experience of fighting opponents at similar or superior power levels. And he has webbing that Batman will not be able to break out of.
As I said before, a story could easily be written in which Batman wins. There are many ways this could be written. But I think Spider-Man is more likely to win in a fight -- Spider-Man's speed, agility and Spider-Sense would make it hard for Batman to lay a hand on him, but if Spider-Man lays one good punch on Batman it should be all over.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | 6
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Well, if you'd just SAID you wanted Spider-Man to win no matter what, I could have saved a lot of time.
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Josh Goldberg
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 7
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Of course, spider-sense is an advantage. But a lot of people in this thread are talking as though it is the be-all and end-all of advantages. The ultimate trump card for any and all situations. But it seems to me that Spider-Man has found himself in many a jam since his debut, even with his spider-sense.
Don't get me wrong. I would love to have spider-sense. I just think it's being a little oversold by some here.
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Darren Taylor
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 8
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Surely these two characters would tussle, via some story-contrivance, both get the upper-hand over the other at some point in the ensuing confusion and then realise that they are both good guys, team-up and trounce Mysterio and the Joker!---soundly!
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Josh Goldberg
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | 9
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Also, I haven't read it in a while and I don't have it handy, but it should be noted that Batman has held his own in a fight against the Hulk. So don't count him out too quickly.
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Brian Hague
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 10
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Batman would not necessarily need to deduce that Spider-Man has a Spider-Sense. Spidey talks about it, out loud, on a number of occasions. The heroes who were with him in Secret Wars surely heard him mention it. If the Avengers and the FF know, I would think Batman would have access to the info somehow.
Batman vs. the Hulk was a great deal of fun for me as a young reader. Of course, Batman has experience against large bruisers like Blockbuster, Clayface, and Solomon Grundy. Not that they're the Hulk exactly, but it isn't as if Batman's never been in a fight like this before. As I recall, he wins.
Yeah, yeah, it was no fair. Batman cheated. He should have just stood there and let himself get hit, yadda yadda...
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Roy Johnson
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | 11
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If a "Spider-Man" guest-starred in a Bill Finger tale, he'd win the first fight, tie the second, then Batman would beat him at the end.
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 16 January 2015 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 12
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Also, I haven't read it in a while and I don't have it handy, but it should be noted that Batman has held his own in a fight against the Hulk. So don't count him out too quickly.--------------------------- True. But then there's also this infamous fight:
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Topic Closed)
