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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | 1
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Malcolm X was assassinated by fellow Muslims, probably because of sectarian differences.
Its wrong to judge an entire group of people because of the actions of a few. But we cannot ignore the wrongs within a religion, especially if it espouses violence and murder, front and center.
People cannot blame Muslims for not criticising the Koran when the religious penalty for Muslims doing so is death. But then what is the rest of the world to do? Arrange cultural understanding seminars with ISIS?
Edited by Joe Zhang on 21 January 2015 at 6:17pm
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 2
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"I'm a liberal, too, and I know it's not just liberals criticizing the publication of the cartoons, but I expect liberals to be a hell of a lot more thoughtful about the importance of free speech."
Bill Mahr made the same observation recently. The problem would seem to be that many liberals are steeped in theories of multiculturalism, moral relativism, and intersectionality (a "theory"that has been described as "the grievance Olympics”). For instance, I recently read the book Unlearning Liberty by Greg Lukianoff, a lawyer for the free speech advocacy group FIRE. He brings up numerous instances of liberals suppressing free speech on college campuses. One of the more shocking instances was about a student who broached the topic of the treatment of women in the Middle East, particularly as it relates to the practice of genital mutilation,in their Women's Study class. The teacher, an avowed feminist, reamed out this student, asking how dare they presume to lecture another culture about it practices, and making claims that it is an empowering tradition for women in that part of the word. The funny thing is, that most of these people also belong to the blame America first crowd, and spend as much time condemning the culture and country that has given them the freedom and security to be able to openly criticize it. The cultures that they often laud over Western Civilization would most likely deny them that right, and would jail them, or even kill them for speaking "truth to power". Although, I do think part of this is simply about one’s comfort zone. Many critics of the West are far more comfortable slamming Christianity and the West than they are Islam and other religions. Often times I've seen people, in a discussion about issues with other religions, constantly steer the discussion back to Christianity, as if afraid that they will let their favorite shibboleth pass by unmocked in a discussion of atrocities. Sam Harris once pointed out that in such discussion, you have to start with something like,"Yes, the Inquisition was terrible. Yes, it's bad that abortion doctors have been killed by Christian nuts. Yes, the Crusades were brutal. Witch trials, terrible, sure.... Now, about Islam...." I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali summed it up best when, in an interview with a "journalist" who could hardly contain his exasperation at Ali's praise of the West and America, when she said, "You grew up with freedom. You don't know what it's like to live without it. That is why it's so easy for you to throw it away."
*Edited because spell checker rightly recognized that "intersectionality" isn't a real word.
Edited by Glen Keith on 22 January 2015 at 3:55am
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3908
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 1:49am | IP Logged | 3
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So, you honestly and truly believe that if Norges Folkekirke took over the government of Norway tomorrow, they would begin having beheadings in the public square, stoning women to death for adultery, and throwing gay men to their deaths off of buildings just like ISIS?
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Of course not, and stop twisting my arguments ad absurdum.
You want to label an entire religion and its followers as bad or fundamentally violent, that's on you. You want to say that the Christian shit doesn't stink, that's also on you.
ISIS is a monstrosity that has risen from two war-torn countries with no stable social, economical or political infrastructure. My point is that these factors can turn ANY religion or political ideology into something dangerous. You may disagree with that, and that's OK - but that's what we're discussing here. Not the evils of ISIS. I'd be happy to discuss that too, but I think we're pretty much in agreement when it comes to them and their actions.
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 3:24am | IP Logged | 4
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"My point is that these factors can turn ANY religion or political ideology into something dangerous. You may disagree with that, and that's OK - but that's what we're discussing here."
Actually, this thread is labeled "Terrorist Attacks in Paris". As these were committed by radical Islamist, who were, depending upon your source, either allied with, or inspired by, ISIS and al Qaeda, it really isn't about "any religion or political ideology".
Edited by Glen Keith on 22 January 2015 at 4:31am
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Carmen Bernardo
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 5
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Glen has raised some pretty good points here, so I'll chip in my two cents:
The way I see it today, we are on the verge of some very dangerous ground. The Charlie Hebdo magazine was no friend to any religion. They had even more pornographic cartoon depictions of priests and nuns, as well as of the prophets of Islam and Judaism. They were even busted once for a cartoon mocking the French hero Charles Du Galle in the wake of his funeral. To equivocate the massacre with events like the Inquisition and the ancient Israelites' massacre against the Canaanites shows a general lack of historical perspective, and perhaps a sort of malice towards the "Establishment". Be careful of what you wish for.
The fact that a Left-leaning atheist satire magazine got targeted by a bloodthirsty death-cult in the name of Islam shows us that no one is safe from Islamic terrorism. The sooner we acknowledge that the fight has been on for quite some time, the sooner we may take steps towards ending it. Throwing modern Christians under the same rock with the mass murderers isn't what I'd call a solution, though.
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3908
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 6:24am | IP Logged | 6
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Throwing modern Christians under the same rock with the mass murderers isn't what I'd call a solution, though.
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Nor would I presume to, Carmen. The keyword being modern, after all.
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Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 7
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You want to label an entire religion and its followers as bad or fundamentally violent, that's on you. You want to say that the Christian shit doesn't stink, that's also on you.
-------------------------
Over and over again in this thread I've acknowledged the evils done by Christians over the centuries. Over and over and over again. So implying that I've somehow denied them makes you the one 'twisting arguments'.
If I say that A is at the present time worse than B, I am not saying that B is perfect, right, or even good. I am merely making a comparative statement that as bad as we may find B to be, A is worse.
And as bad as you may find various forms of Christianity, Islam is worse at the present time. The Church of Norway would not govern the country the way an Islamic group would govern a country, because the two teach and believe in fundamentally different values.
Second, I have said nothing about individual followers. Islam, like every religion, is a system of ideas and beliefs about the world and about one's place in it. And yes, any rational person can look at a system of ideas and judge those ideas on their merits. I find many of the ideas of Islam repellent, as should any modern, reasonably liberally minded person in the West.
There are a wide variety of types of Islam, but its remarkable how much they all seem to be on the same page about these very repellent ideas. Whether we're talking about the Iranian Shi'ite theocracy, the Wahabist Sunni monarchy of Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, or the secular Islamic society of Turkey, in every one of them religious dissent is not tolerated and religious minorities are oppressed, women are third class citizens, homosexuality is punished by the death penalty, in none of them is there freedom of speech or the press, etc. etc. etc.
Christianity can reasonably point at a Fred Phelps and say he's a bad apple. He's in disagreement with pretty much the entire Christian world, and he doesn't behave or speak at all like Jesus, the religion's founder.
The reason Islam can't do the same with terrorists like those in France is that while they make think the violence is ill-advised as a tactic, they fundamentally agree with the values that motivated the attack, and the attackers were emulating the prophet Muhammad. If you listen to the Muslims who are 'speaking out against' these crimes, you'll notice one common theme, "This makes it harder for other Muslims in France and the rest of Europe..." Not, "People should be free to say whatever they like." Not, "We condemn all religious violence." Because they don't believe those things that we believe and hold dear.
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Joseph Gauthier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 March 2009
Posts: 1421
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 8
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The fact that a Left-leaning atheist satire magazine got targeted by a bloodthirsty death-cult in the name of Islam shows us that no one is safe from Islamic terrorism.
This isn't the first time you've said this Carmen. Why does it show us that no one is safe from Islamic terrorism? And have you ever believed otherwise?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | 9
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Throwing modern Christians under the same rock with the mass murderers isn't what I'd call a solution, though.••• Somehow, I am reminded of an old riddle: Q: What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A: A start.
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Carmen Bernardo
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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Trouble is, once they start doing that, who's going to defend them when the other shoe drops, and it's they whose heads are on the block?
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | 11
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Instead of debating about whether one set of superstitions has become less dangerous than another set of superstitions, we should focus on replacing all superstition with logic, killing two birds with one stone.
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 22 January 2015 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 12
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What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
Grounds for litigation.
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Topic Closed)
