| Author |
|
Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 2:16am | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
No-Go Zones: They don't exists in Paris, they're not necessarily exclusively muslin, and the chariah doesn't rule there.Now there can be overzealed & intolerant muslins, but that doesn"t go that far. And muslins don't have the exclusivity of intolerance. |
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7787
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 2:25am | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
No go zones tend to be related to gangs, not religious factions. At least in the UK.
Far more insidious is the attitude to women that is starting to take hold as shown in places like Rotherham, UK. That is scary and needs to be stamped out forthwith. But then it is looking like sections of the police may have been complicit in what went on there, which is a pretty scary thought.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3908
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 3:39am | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
"There is not a Muslim country on this Earth where women are not oppressed, today, at levels the Western world hasn't seen in more than a century. There is not a Muslim country on this Earth where someone can be openly gay and expect to survive a week."
--
Try Indonesia and Turkey. Still lots of problems there, but examples of how economic growth and modernisation influence society, laws and, yes, how religion is practiced.
As for your statement that there is no one calling for non-violent resistance to change these societies, that is plain wrong. Speaking for my country, their voices have been loud and clear for some time now. People are speaking up in Saudi Arabia and Iran, to great risks to their health and lives.
Make no mistake, I'm not advocating Islam in any form - being firmly non-religious - but nor do I believe that you can explain away the world's problems by deducing that one religion has more or less merit to it than others.
The history of Christianity is steeped in horrors and systematic oppression, and it took almost 2000 years for it to evolve into the more "lenient" religion we see today in the West. Where they don't condemn you to death for being gay, only to Hell for all eternity.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Philippe Negrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2644
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 6:26am | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
No-Go zones as such don't exist. What exists here is probably the same as poor dangerous districts in the outskirts of big US cities. And it's true some services like public transport/deliveries/mail/police are less present there.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
Here's a paradox I've noticed. There are a lot of liberals* in the US who are criticizing the Mohammed cartoons because they are offensive to Muslims. Shouldn't these same folks insist that all women in the US dress in hijabs, niqabs, or even burkas because it's considered terribly offensive for women to be out in public without at least one of these types of cover-up clothing? Why is the offense caused by the cartoons terrible but the offense caused by not wearing the appropriate clothing no big deal?
*I'm a liberal, too, and I know it's not just liberals criticizing the publication of the cartoons, but I expect liberals to be a hell of a lot more thoughtful about the importance of free speech.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Jose Sarduy
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 December 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 45
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
The Daily mail.com reports
"Former Miss Turkey, 26, facing trial after being arrested for posting satirical poem that criticised the country's president
Although officially Turkey is secular, 99.8 per cent of the population are registered as Muslim.
Now it appears the Turkish crackdown is extending not just to monitoring the media, but also to its readers."
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3508
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
"There is not a Muslim country on this Earth where women are not oppressed, today, at levels the Western world hasn't seen in more than a century. There is not a Muslim country on this Earth where someone can be openly gay and expect to survive a week."
--
Try Indonesia and Turkey.
--------------
With all due respect, Peter, I think maybe you're not following world news very closely.
Indonesia, that bastion of tolerance, just executed five people over the weekend (including foreign nationals) for alleged drug trafficking.
Meanwhile, just two weeks ago, the President of Turkey gave a speech in which he said: "You cannot bring women and men into an equal position. That is against nature" and "The Quran has defined the role of women, and that is motherhood". So you holding Turkey up as a counter-example to my remark about how Muslim countries treat women is somewhat laughable.
Any religion is a set of ideas. It is perfectly possible to judge different ideas and determine their relative merit. Islam is a worse religion than Quakerism. Even if you think they're both wrong, Quakers are pacifists and will do you no harm, and value tolerance and respect for all people. Islam does not share those values. I would much rather live in a country run by Quakers than one run by Muslims.
Your country of Norway is a Social Democracy with a primarily Christian tradition. Because of that, you have things like freedom of expression and of the press, women in your country have equal rights to men, people who love other people of the same gender aren't subject to state-sponsored violence there. If your country, tomorrow, were governed by Muslims, none of that would be true anymore. Do you value those rights and freedoms so little that you can't say that your society and its values are superior to those of Islam?
it took almost 2000 years for it to evolve into the more "lenient" religion we see today in the West. Where they don't condemn you to death for being gay, only to Hell for all eternity.
------------------------------
And Islam still hasn't evolved! If you prefer to say Islam is a 'less highly evolved' religion, as opposed to saying 'bad' or 'worse', okay, we can be mealy-mouthed about it.
But that last sentence is again, laughable. I'll take fundamentalist Christians thinking that I'm going to hell over fundamentalist Muslims trying to send me there immediately any day of the week!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3908
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
If your country, tomorrow, were governed by Muslims, none of that would be true anymore. Do you value those rights and freedoms so little that you can't say that your society and its values are superior to those of Islam?
--
That premise is so preposterous that I can't answer it seriously.
To equate a religion with a set of ideas and laws forming the basis of a modern society is simply not done. We have become a free and modern democracy because we have moved AWAY from religion over the course of the past 200 years. Not because of any Christian tradition, as you put it.
Were a religion to BECOME the law, as in Iran, it would be an evil thing no matter what religion. Which is my main point in this discussion.
Indonesia and Turkey are examples of countries where things have moved forward. I did not suggest that they were perfect - as we like to regard it from our Western point of view. The executions you mention have nothing to do with religion, but with the strict drug laws that are enforced. I think the death penalty is barbaric no matter what. And your country still apply it, though for different crimes.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Marcio Ferreira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2008
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Palestinians celebrating on social networks the recent assault that killed 10 Israeli. Why I don't see people going against these cartuns?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3508
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Were a religion to BECOME the law, as in Iran, it would be an evil thing no matter what religion. Which is my main point in this discussion.
------------------------------------
So, you honestly and truly believe that if Norges Folkekirke took over the government of Norway tomorrow, they would begin having beheadings in the public square, stoning women to death for adultery, and throwing gay men to their deaths off of buildings just like ISIS? All that's stopping them is their constitutional status?
Really?
All religions in the present world are not the same.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
There is no Muslim Dr. King >
SER: By that standard, there is no Christian one either. Bush oversaw
torture and warfare, and he still considers himself a Christian. King was
unique among human beings, religion aside. I doubt that if the same
man, who grew up in the segregated South, had been Muslim, he
would have led an uprising against Americans.
Malcolm X was considered to have promoted violence but he mostly
argued for self-defense, which would make him no different from any
American. And his views on non-blacks were moderated by his time in
Mecca and becoming closer to Islam, not in rejecting it. Malcolm never
threw bombs into churches. It was Christians who did that.
Muhammad Ali chose not to fight in Vietnam and kill people because of
his religion. He didn't have a thirst for violence.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3508
|
| Posted: 21 January 2015 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
By that standard, there is no Christian one either. Bush oversaw
torture and warfare, and he still considers himself a Christian. King was
unique among human beings, religion aside.
---------------------------------
In the very post you quoted, I pointed out and referred to all of the negative and violent things that people have perpetrated over the centuries under the name Christian, my point was that the Christian tradition has also produced other things, and another kind of people as well.
We can debate just how violent the Nation of Islam was in the 60's and is today (personally I consider it highly probable that Malcolm was assassinated by that organization for moderating his views), but we can definitely say that it differed from King's stance of non-violence.
Muhammad Ali, as I recall, stated that he wouldn't go to Vietnam because he personally had no grudge against the Vietnamese people, and he declined to kill at the request of the U.S. government, which again isn't the same as non-violence.
Back to my original point, however. Regardless of what we might conjecture about a world in which Dr. King was of another faith, in the real world, he was a Christian leader before he became a political figure, and very many of those who marched with him and supported him were as well. And, crucially, Dr. King saw his position of non-violence and his respect for all human beings as growing out of his Christian faith, and as an emulation of Jesus Christ. He emulated Christ to the point of being willing to die for what he believed in without offering any violent resistance.
If one spends one's life emulating the prophet Mohammad, the resulting life will be decidedly different. And definitely not non-violent.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
|
|
Topic Closed)
