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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4945
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 1
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"Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing - with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for the second and third place. "
-Robert A. Heinlein
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh"
-Robert A. Heinlein
I find it depressing that so many human beings can be so deluded even after all this time. Fucking invisible man living in outer space or something and billions still believe this crap.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 2
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I'm not Christian, and the religion holds zero appeal to me. However I am beginning to appreciate that there is enough wiggle room in the Bible for many Christians to follow their conscience rather than just religious laws. The historical Christ (if there was ever actually such a man) was basically a social and religious dissident, who seemed to be more concerned about the welfare of individuals over religion.
Islam doesn't seem to have such a figure in their Prophet. His words and actions are God's law, and off with your head if you cross him. End of story.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 20 January 2015 at 6:57am
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 7:09am | IP Logged | 3
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This NYT article serves as a follow-up on the idea of "no-go zones" in France, which were mentioned higher up in the thread. There is definitely controversy over whether these zones actually exists. Fox News has already back-tracked and apologized 4 times on Saturday for saying that the zones exist. The French satirical news program Le Petit Journal skewered Fox News over it.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 4
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Also, there are those who say that were it not for the decades of political oppression and war in the Middle East, there would be no Islamic terrorists. That terrorism is blowback to American and European foreign policy in the region. For a while I believed this, but I am beginning to wonder if that is the whole truth. For example, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, despite enjoying unimaginable per-capita wealth and great political power are still stuck with 19th century attitudes. If left alone (as should have been), would the rest of the Muslim have just followed Saudi Arabia's path?
Edited by Joe Zhang on 20 January 2015 at 7:14am
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 5
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This blog post, from a secular philosopher, provides thoughtful answers to 16 questions/issues about the Hebdo massacre. Note: it is lengthy but well worth the read.
One of the things it specifically addresses (question #9) is related to what Joe Zhang just posted about. Yes, we can and should talk about the political/social/economic factors that lead to radical Islam, but there comes a point where we risk infantalizing Muslims by taking away their agency and responsibility for their actions.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4945
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 6
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Man, the Chinese internet sucks. Been battling with it all evening. The next person who tells me that government needs more involvement in life is going to get punched in the nose. Censorship to the logical extreme. Block everything to upset nobody. Sigh.
Sorry about the multiple posts.
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 7
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No-Go Zones:
What exists are places, in suburbs, where gangs send fake message to firefighters, emrgency services or cops, and attack them when they come.
But those are not the places described on Fox News, the places shown on Fox news are actualy multi-cultural places in Paris where, for some of them, i used to go to take a drink. I have by the way a jewish friend who lives in one of those places "where Shariah rules".
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 20 January 2015 at 10:31am
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 8
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On cheap oil:"At that price, i store some in my camping trailer!"
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | 9
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"When Christians critisise Muslims for what's written in their holy book, they're introducing Mr. Pot to Mr. Kettle."
And my point is that there are very few Christians these days who act according to those passages in the Bible. To be truthful, while I've read the Bible, the Gnostic scriptures, the Dead Sea Scrolls, parts of the Apocrypha, the Quran, the Hadith, the Bhagavad Gita, the Avesta, and other many other religious books, I don't care what's written within them so long as the followers of those faiths don't act according to the worst passages in them. Sure, as an atheist it's fun to point out the similarities and inconsistencies, and to mock believers for some of the crazy crap that's in those books, but so long as they aren't selling their daughters into slavery, or stoning adulterers, or whatever nonsense is in those books, who cares if they want to cherry pick the rest?
And, frankly, as one whose read the books, I will argue that Christian have at least a leg to stand on. Jesus may have told his followers to put off their parents, to buy swords, and have whipped the money changers, but he didn't kill anyone. Nor did he didn't goad his disciples into killing those that offended him. while later followers may have forced conversions at the point of a sword, his disciples didn't.
Mohammad did that, and much, much more. Speaking as an atheist, I much rather look for moral grounding* in the New Testament, or the Gnostic books, than in the Quran. Mohammad endorsed murder, maiming, slavery, lying, pillaging, and a host of other reprehensible acts. Try finding equivalents in the Gospels for the nastier passages in the Hadith. You won't 'cause they aren't there. I mean, while Jesus stopped the people from stoning a woman caught in adultery, Mohammad authorized a woman to be stoned to death for the same offense (the man got off with flogging and exile). They are hardly morally equivalent leaders.
Even the Old Testament, as bloody and violent as it is, most of the punishments are meted out by God. I mean, it's one thing if God sends in 2 she-bears to tear up 30 kids for calling one of his prophets "baldy", it would quite another if Elisha ran over and hacked them all to little bits with a sword.
So again, whoopee do, you can find offensive passages in other religious text. I'll start worrying when their readers start behaving like ISIS or Bokko Haram.
*Although, to be perfectly honest, I rather seek my morality from Star Trek, Spider-Man, and the Lone Ranger!
Edited by Glen Keith on 20 January 2015 at 7:54pm
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Glen Keith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 851
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | 10
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"Try a more comperative country for that analogy to work. Try a mosque in the USA, for example. In that case, I'd be equally afraid of getting my ass kicked"
Actually, you seemed to have missed my point. My point is that if you go to the area in the West that is usually portrayed as a bunch of Bible thumpin' Jesus Freak NRA lovin' bitter clingers, supposedly the closest thing to a theocracy this side of the Atlantic, you'd still be far less likely to be killed for your blasphemy than you would in an actual theocracy. I'd be surprised you'd even get your ass kicked.
That may seem to be stating the obvious, but the way some people play the moral equivalency game, I'm not sure that it is.
Edited by Glen Keith on 22 January 2015 at 4:34am
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Mike Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 11
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Hey, I was a week or so ahead of the headlines with my question about the existence of no-go zones. I'm more confused than ever now that some of our French forum members have explicitly confirmed they exist and our US media is screaming that they're a "myth."
Edited by Mike Murray on 20 January 2015 at 8:52pm
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Steve De Young
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Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3507
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| Posted: 20 January 2015 at 9:14pm | IP Logged | 12
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That may seem to be stating the obvious, but the way some people play the moral equivalency game, I'm not sure that it is.
---------------------------
There is no moral equivalency. You can quote horrible sounding Bible passages all you want, but most of the really horrible ones are from the Hebrew Bible. Funny, the Jews don't seem to be a bunch of violent, barbaric war-mongers oppressing women and executing homosexuals in the public square.
Likewise, Christianity. There have been a lot of horrible people in history who have done a lot of horrible things and claimed the name of Jesus Christ. However, the Christian tradition has also given us people like Martin Luther King, Jr. whose birthday we just celebrated. Its also given us charity hospitals and orphanages. Yes, you can find passages in the Bible that at least condone slavery, but the abolition movement in both England and the United States came out of the churches.
Islam has just as many bad passages in the Quran, and just as much bad history as Judaism and Christianity if you go back a few centuries. But frankly, it has no upside. The day to day behavior of its followers is entirely different than followers of those other two religious traditions.
There is not a Muslim country on this Earth where women are not oppressed, today, at levels the Western world hasn't seen in more than a century. There is not a Muslim country on this Earth where someone can be openly gay and expect to survive a week.
There is no Muslim Dr. King. There is no one calling for non-violent resistance to change these societies. Rather, we see calls from all Muslims to change the rest of the world's societies to mirror oppressive Muslim regimes. The only difference is how much violence they are willing to condone in subjecting the rest of the world to Muslim rule. Its purely a question of how much violence, when, and against whom it should be directed.
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