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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 3:36am | IP Logged | 1
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As Charlie Hebdo Fronting Muhammad Sells out, Comic Detained - ABC News
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 3:39am | IP Logged | 2
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There will be two more millions of copies printed, for a total of 5 millions.
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 3
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Al Qaeda has officially claimed responsibility for the attack.
Some observations:
1. Other than meeting their objective of murdering people (which is really just a means to an end for terrorists), the attack has done the exact opposite of what they hoped to do. Circulation of Charlie Hebdo has gone from 60K to 5 million, the world is talking about how nutty radical Islam is (e.g., killing people over cartoons), and people are recommitting to standing up to terrorists rather than cowering in fear.
2. As much as we would like to believe that the attack was the work of a few deranged nuts, the official involvement of Al Qaeda shows a much larger, much more organized effort to crush free society under the boot of radical Islam. Again, I think this helps mobilize people against religious extremism and encourage them to look to science and reason as better options.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 4
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Some observations:
1. Other than meeting their objective of murdering people (which is really just a means to an end for terrorists), the attack has done the exact opposite of what they hoped to do. Circulation of Charlie Hebdo has gone from 60K to 5 million, the world is talking about how nutty radical Islam is (e.g., killing people over cartoons), and people are recommitting to standing up to terrorists rather than cowering in fear.
2. As much as we would like to believe that the attack was the work of a few deranged nuts, the official involvement of Al Qaeda shows a much larger, much more organized effort to crush free society under the boot of radical Islam. Again, I think this helps mobilize people against religious extremism and encourage them to look to science and reason as better options.
****
SER: If I were a terrorist organization hoping to spread, well, terror, I'd claim responsibility for anything. It would be a win-win. And I doubt there was any real intent in shutting down or scaring Charlie Hedbo, just like 9/11 wasn't about permanently crippling the U.S. financial system.
The profile of this shooting is in many ways like the acts of terror (though we did not call them that) in Tucson, Aurora, and Newtown (for a start). Disaffected, emotionally unstable young men commit these acts and arguably the Koran is as influential as the Catcher in the Rye. Certainly, Al Qaeda exploits this action but it will never "crush free society." It's not the Soviet Union under Kruschev. Its goal is to destabilize society and push the West to engage in a global street fight, engage in gang retaliation, and essentially up their recruitment abilities, especially in France where there is tension between Muslims and the state. Arguably, Al Qaeda wants France to enact its own version of the "intolerable acts" on Muslims, which will force even the moderates to side with them. In a religious war, there will be clear lines drawn.
I'd dispute the idea that this helps mobilize people against religious extremism. I'd argue that it just makes a nation like the U.S. *more* extreme in its own religious position. So we get Lindsay Graham declaring this a "religious war," which is what Al Qaeda wants.
When the response to terror is predictably terror, then science and reason are rarely embraced.
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3908
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 5
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Islam is neither worse nor better than any other religion. A religion of peace? Sure, if you're a peaceful man to begin with. A religion of war? If that's your wont.
What Islam is, is practised in some of the poorest, less developed, less educated and more conflict-torn regions of the world. Whereas the fanatical elements of Christianity or Judaism have been marginalised with the increasing prosperity of the countries where these religions are being practised. Of course that matters.
Turn Al Qaida into a Christian organisation, though, and you'd have bombings and beheadings in the name of Jesus. And Fatwas on all the Pythons for making LIFE OF BRIAN.
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 6
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PETTER MYHR NESS: Islam is neither worse nor better than any other religion.
I can definitely see why many people have this opinion but it's harder every day for me to agree. Indeed, heinous acts have been committed in the name of many religions. However, Islam is the reigning champ of the modern age. 3000 people were murdered in 9/11. Boko Haram just killed anywhere from several hundred to 2,000 people (depending on differing news reports). What other religion can claim such a death toll in the 20th & 21st centuries? To quote a friend of mine, the association of violence has become so closely associated with Islam that "you'd think it's almost a feature, not a bug." I'm all for trying to figure out why, and I agree with Petter that it's a complex issue of religion, politics, and economics. In the meantime, bad ideas still deserve ridicule and Islam is chock-full of them.
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Jeremy Simington
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Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 7
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Of course, then non-Muslims say ridiculous, hateful nonsense like this and I want to become a hermit and live in a cave.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 8
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Islam is practiced by more than a billion people. If it was inherently violent, I wouldn't be typing these words, I'd be fighting for my life in part of the global jihad.
9/11 wasn't necessarily "about" Islam any more than manifest destiny was "about" Christianity. Religion is sometimes used to justify very real political goals, but I have trouble buying that anyone in al Qaeda would be smoking peace pipes if they'd never heard of Islam. As others have commented, religion coupled with horrible living conditions in an unstable region can result in bad things.
But Timothy McVeigh wasn't overtly religious -- he bounced around from Catholicism to atheism and back again, which fit the profile of a Travis Bickle type desperate for something to give his life value.
I think 9/11 had a specific political goal. Would the terrorist have been less inclined to die without their religious beliefs? Perhaps but kamikaze missions are not unique to Islam.
The Murdoch Reaction, from the link above, is part of the political goal. Al Qaeda was probably delighted to see the U.S. invade Iraq. It was like handing them potential recruits and destabilizing a region, both of which is key to their goals.
Man does not need God to crave power and control. Arguably, it's *why* man created God.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3908
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 9
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What other religion can claim such a death toll in the 20th & 21st centuries?
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Just because there seem to be more Islam-related violence NOW doesn't counter my point that it could be just about any other religion given the right cirumstances.
In 2011, on July 22, Anders Behring Breivik murdered 77 people, most of them children, and injured over 300 people. His agenda was part Christian and heavily Anti-Islamic.
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Eddie Avila
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Joined: 09 May 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 115
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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Guys, guys, guys--ever hear of the KKK? What's that thing they burn? It's a cross. How many people were killed by the KKK in the US in the 20th century? Do they somehow not count? Is it NOT terrorism because the colors are reversed?
I'm extremely disappointed that so many are completely ignorant of American history.
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Eddie Avila
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Joined: 09 May 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 115
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 11
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There is an agenda in the media to promote Islamic violence. The same corporations that profit from the US Defense budget own the airwaves.
Why isn't domestic terrorism perpetrated by Christian fundamentalists in the US promoted as much in the media? Because we aren't likely to use multi-million dollar missiles to bomb Klan rallies.
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Jeremy Simington
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Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 14 January 2015 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 12
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Petter, I think we probably agree more on this issue than we disagree, but on your point about Breivik, we don't see eye to eye. Comparing Anders Breivik to acts carried out by Islamic extremists is like saying that losing your legs in an accident is the same as dying a long, slow, painful death from cancer. They're both terrible but the latter is significantly worse. In the case of Breivik vs Islam, it's far more than 1 order of magnitude worse.
Eddie, I'm going to assume you're not being sarcastic. Of course the KKK is a terrorist organization. No one said otherwise. The number of people killed by the KKK is actually unknown but here's an analysis of it from Politifact.
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