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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16499
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 1
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Taavi wrote:
| ...Yeah, Mystique first appeared in Ms. Marvel by Claremont and Cockrum... |
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Cockrum may have designed Mystique, but he did not draw her first appearances in "Ms. Marvel", that was Jim Mooney. He did draw th cover, but Mystique did not appear on the cover.
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31170
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 2
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So, if Cockrum designed her, was his intent for Nightcrawler to have some connection to her?
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 3
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JB: One of the crazy things about the Torch/Vision
"mash up" is that even after I proved it didn't work
based on previously published material, some insisted
on making it still so by adding even MORE hoops to
jump thru!
SER: The "mash up" also burdens the character
needlessly with complex backstory. I prefer an
"elevator pitch" approach to superheros -- and I dare
say those are often the most successful ones. You can
"elevator pitch" Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and so
on.
I recall a period about 15 years or so ago when you
couldn't really ask "Who is Supergirl" without a
paragraph-long answer involving earth angels and
something like that. You might as well have named the
character something entirely different if she can't be
summed up quickly as "Superman's cousin with all of
his powers."
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Mike Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 4
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Dave Phelps - thanks for the info, circa Avengers 125 is where my Marvel knowledge is weakest.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15950
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | 5
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Elevator pitch for Supergirl:
A: I've got this great idea for a character called Supergirl. She's Superman's cousin with all of his powers! B: Gee, I don't know. Doesn't that just make Superman seem a lot less special? And what about him being the last survivor of Krypton? A: You may not like my idea about a city in a bottle...
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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Otto Binder has said that Mort Weisinger used to mock him, Kurt Schaffenberger, and other former Fawcett employees for all of the nonsensical, silly content in the Captain Marvel books. Binder specifically mentions Weisinger making fun of Mary Marvel, a title Binder often wrote. What a ridiculous concept! Binder simply shook it off. Weisinger was an abusive sort to a great many of his employees. Then one day, Weisinger went barreling through the office telling everyone he had the BEST idea for a new character!
"SUPERGIRL!"
And, of course, Binder was just the guy to write Weisinger's new brainstorm!
There were a number of Supergirls previous to the one we came to know and love including foreign princesses, magically created dream girls, and even an early 40's era ashcan edition (with no Supergirl character aside from the name on the cover) that was printed solely to establish copyright to the name.
And the number of Supergirls created since Kara had to be killed in the name of making the universe simpler is jaw-dropping, especially if we include various homages and wannabes.
Kandor, though, I believe, is all Binder's! And I, for one, bless his name and memory for it!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 7
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As a kid, back when I was the ideal demographic for the product of the time, I loved the introduction of Supergirl and Kandor. As I grew older, and especially as I became the guy driving the boat, I saw how much damage the "de-uniquing" process did to Superman as a character. A few years back, an editor who had recently been assigned to the Superman titles called to ask me what I thought were defining elements of the character. First thing I said was "Sole survivor of the doomed planet Krypton." "So it's not just me!" said the editor. (I have often thought that "sole survivor" is what somehow got mutated into "stranger in a strange land." Superman, of course, is no "stranger" on Earth. It's where he grew up!)
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15950
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 8
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as I became the guy driving the boat----------------------------------------- I love this way of describing it!
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2364
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 9
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"Sole survivor" is s great place to start, but it's a little bleak. I too enjoyed Supergirl, Kandor, and Krypto (yes, even Krypto!), and it seemed that the Phantom Zone villains were the only ones I really worried about presenting a threat to Superman. Even as a kid, I felt and understood that Supergirl and Kandor represented HOPE! Hope for Superman (he was no longer alone), hope for Krypton (this noble place might one day rise from the ashes), and even hope for the universe (would reborn Kryptonians one day spread out across the universe bringing peace and help as Superman once had?).
On the other hand, Batman SHOULD be bleak! Batman should be alone! It's just so weird that the ultimate loner has more sidekicks than a car full of clowns! I love Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon, but I would sacrifice Robin and Batgirl (and ALL of their copycats) to make Batman more of a "sole survivor."
Back to Superman: Looking back, I can really appreciate how brilliant a story-telling device Kandor was ("Superman doesn't have to time travel and go light years to visit Krypton, he just has to jump in this bottle!") and also brilliant that the tiny Kandorians couldn't really become an army of Supermen and bring justice (or tyranny) to the universe.
Supergirl, however, I can't help but love. It seems the worst missed opportunity in comics that the real Supergirl never had her own comic handled the right way--a teen girl in high school with all the powers of Superman! That's a pretty good elevator pitch right there! Superboy ("The adventures of Superman--when he was a boy!") also seems like a surefire premise that could have been more popular than Spider-Man, if ever handled well.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 10
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ERIC: On the other hand, Batman SHOULD be bleak! Batman
should be alone!
SER: Robin was introduced in April of 1940 -- less than
a year after Batman. I've been rereading the comics from
that period and although the *setting* is somewhat grim
(murderous gangsters, stories set at night), Batman
himself is a completely well-adjusted and happy person.
I also think I've gone issues without Bruce Wayne even
mentioning his parents and their murder. He kicks butt
and saves lives and utterly *enjoys himself* with Robin
by his side.
I respect that some fans prefer the morose, brooding,
obsessed "Dark Knight." Different tastes and all that,
but I will stand and argue that this is the character as
he was originally. (Somewhat ironically, the hardedged,
moderately powered Superman was around for much longer
but no one thinks that this is the definitive version of
the character.)
ERIC: Back to Superman: Looking back, I can really
appreciate how brilliant a story-telling device Kandor
was ("Superman doesn't have to time travel and go light
years to visit Krypton, he just has to jump in this
bottle!") and also brilliant that the tiny Kandorians
couldn't really become an army of Supermen and bring
justice (or tyranny) to the universe.
SER: My problem with Kandor is that it eliminated any
reason for Superman to have a secret identity. Why not
spend his "down" time in Kandor with fellow Kryptonians
and even settle down with one? The technology in the
Fortress was such that he could easily divide his time
between there and saving lives as Superman.
Yes, I understand that's not the Superman concept (Clark
Kent, mild-mannered reporter), but by the time Kandor
popped up in the comics, Clark Kent was just a
disguise... but a disguise that served no purpose. Why
would anyone presume that Superman *had* a secret
identity? He even publicly has a home (the Fortress of
Solitude). We never get the impression that Superman
enjoys his "human" life -- his human parents are dead,
his career is of moderate interest to him, and Lois Lane
spends most of her time in an antagonistic relationship
with him by trying to expose his identity.
JB fixed this rather elegantly: He spends time as Clark
Kent because that's who is actually *is*. And he has
*no* Kryptonian family, only an Earth family and he was
raised as a human.
ERIC: Supergirl, however, I can't help but love. It
seems the worst missed opportunity in comics that the
real Supergirl never had her own comic handled the right
way--a teen girl in high school with all the powers of
Superman! That's a pretty good elevator pitch right
there! Superboy ("The adventures of Superman--when he
was a boy!") also seems like a surefire premise that
could have been more popular than Spider-Man, if ever
handled well.
SER: I *loved* the Supergirl backups in ACTION COMICS. I
love the character, though she doesn't really "work"
upon close examination (Superman is enough of a jerk to
let his only living relative grow up in an orphanage?).
I preferred Supergirl to Superboy because the former,
for obvious reasons, didn't have the "Prequel Problem"
the latter did. There was very little you could do with
Superboy that you couldn't explore with Supergirl and
avoid Muppet Babying Superman's rogues gallery.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | 11
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The original Siegel and Shuster incarnation of Superman, of course, did
not have all of the Krypton mythology hanging around his neck. The
origin was a quick and dirty way of giving him superpowers. He was
raised as a human being, and did not at all lament or think about his
lost homeworld.
While the question of where he came from proved irresistible (although
it took a decade for writers to begin exploring and building the Krypton
mythology), at the end of the day, I think Superman needs to be very
much a here-and-now character. His origin is interesting, but focusing
on Krypton and its many, many survivors is a mistake.
That's not to slam the mythology of the Weisinger era, or anything. It's
just that my ideal Superman is the early version (and, by extension,
JB's version)-- the guy who's the one and only survivor of the doomed
planet Krypton.
As for Batman, I prefer a balance between the two extremes; dark and
brooding, but also reasonably well-adjusted...and he has a sense of
humor, on occasion. The BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES version,
basically.
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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2080
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 12
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JB, can you explain, in detail, the problem with "de-uniquing" characters like Superman and Batman? As a young child in the 1970s, I loved characters like Supergirl and Batgirl.
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Topic Closed)
