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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 1
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Eric Jansen wrote:
| I think the evidence is right there in the story itself. I see things in the plot for FANTASTIC FOUR #1 that seem like Lee-isms, not Kirby-isms. |
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What about the dramatic crash, with the survivors crawling from the wreckage and deciding immediately afterwards to form a team? Or the fact that three of the FF have personalities that somewhat resemble the Challengers?
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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I don't know if their personalities were the same, just superficial similarities--tough guy, smart guy, hotheaded guy, etc. With Ace leading the Challs, they almost could be seen as a take-off on Doc Savage and his crew. Never got that feeling from the FF.
The pipe-smoking scientist type (Reed) seems straight out of the old Marvel monster mags. Sure, Kirby drew a lot of those, but I still get the impression that was more a Stan Lee trope. I WILL grant you that the name "Mr. Fantastic" does have that bombastic quality Kirby later used a LOT!
The Thing starting off as a more villainous type who could betray the team at any moment seems more like Lee setting up ongoing story possibilities and dynamic character interaction, which he was very good at. I feel that Kirby's plotting technique then was more episodic, "one and done" and then the next one.
Stan Lee seems to like to include teen boy characters (Peter Parker and Rick Jones as well as Johnny) AND to recycle Golden Age characters and names, so I definitely see Lee giving us the Torch. Yes, Kirby did a lot of kid characters too, but usually younger kids.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 08 November 2014 at 3:41pm
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Anthony J Lombardi
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | 3
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What about the dramatic crash, with the survivors crawling from the wreckage and deciding immediately afterwards to form a team? Or the fact that three of the FF have personalities that somewhat resemble the Challengers?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've heard the comparison to the Challengers of the Unknown before. So perhaps they were created in the same mold.
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Mike Norris
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | 4
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I wonder if the Challs and the FF are adult versions of the kid gang characters Kirby did with Simon? Smart guys, tough guys and loud mouths are present there as well. I'm sure Scrapper, Ben and Rocky would get along famously.
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Steve De Young
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 5
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kid gang characters Kirby did with Simon
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I wouldn't say those are really a Simon/Kirby feature. Kid sidekick gangs were pretty common in the Golden Age, ala Thorndyke and the Minutemen helping Hourman, Etta Candy and the sorority girls in WW, etc.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 6
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I wonder if the Challs and the FF are adult versions of the kid gang characters Kirby did with Simon? Smart guys, tough guys and loud mouths are present there as well. I'm sure Scrapper, Ben and Rocky would get along famously. ~~~~~~~~~~ There were kid gangs all over the Golden Age
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Mike Norris
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| Posted: 09 November 2014 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 7
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I was under the impression that Simon and Kirby pretty much invented the kid gang in comics. The difference between the S/K kid gangs and the others mentioned is they were the title characters "The Boy Commandos" and "The Newsboy Legion" rather than "Rip Carter" and "The Guardian". The prototype might be the "Young Allies", who in addition to Bucky and Toro had non costumed kids: Knuckles, Jeff, Tubby and Whitewash Jones.
Of course the movies ( by way of Broadway) got there first with the Bowery Boys/Dead End Kids. But comics "love affair" with movies is well documented.
Edited by Mike Norris on 09 November 2014 at 9:30am
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 09 November 2014 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 8
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But did Kirby ever create a TEEN character, like Johnny Storm? (Kamandi being the obvious exception--a decade and a half later.)
Edited by Eric Jansen on 09 November 2014 at 4:46pm
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Mike Norris
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| Posted: 09 November 2014 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 9
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A teen with an affinity for fast cars, cute girls and practical jokes, who occasionally goes off half cocked?
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 09 November 2014 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | 10
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Eric Jansen wrote:
| But did Kirby ever create a TEEN character, like Johnny Storm? |
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I'm not understanding your point here. Stan didn't create any teen characters either prior to FF #1 (unless you're counting his work on the Millie the Model type books). Neither one was known for creating teen characters in superhero books prior to working together. So I don't see how you'd conclude teen characters are more a Lee thing than a Kirby thing.
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Robert Bradley
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| Posted: 09 November 2014 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | 11
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Can't people just say "by Lee & Kirby" and leave it at that?
I don't see a need to try to speculate who might have come up with certain characteristics based on their other work.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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| Posted: 10 November 2014 at 2:24am | IP Logged | 12
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Can't people just say "by Lee & Kirby" and leave it at that?
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I agree. It reminds me of the endless discussion about which songs were really more Lennon than McCartney or vice versa. It doesn't matter! They were both involved and they were both credited because that's how they did things. For us mere mortals, the only important thing should be that the songs exist.
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