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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133324
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 1
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Greg, do you think that the fact that Kirby claimed to have created Spider-Man means we should dismiss all of his claims about the creation of Marvel characters as unreliable?++++++++ No, but it does prove that Kirby wasn't necessarily above playing fast and loose with history. Not trying to slam him, or anything--it's just that the Krusaders tend to ignore bits like that. They seem to be stuck with this image of a noble, steadfastly honest genius who was taken advantage of by Big, Bad Marvel--a sort of classic underdog story. •• One of the things that makes me the most crazy in all this, is the way the Kirby boosters cast Stan as the guy who claims to have "created everything," yet we find so many instances of Stan handing out credit while Kirby (or his supporters) claims to have "created everything." In ORIGINS OF MARVEL COMICS Stan told us how he had first handed the Spider-Man assignment to Kirby, didn't like what Jack turned in,* and gave the assignment instead to Ditko. That was a first glimpse into the inner workings of Marvel for many of us, myself included. __________ * Basically, an early version of the Fly.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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Greg Kirkman wrote:
| No, but it does prove that Kirby wasn't necessarily above playing fast and loose with history. |
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Ah, I see. You mentioned the Spider-Man issue in response to my post discussing the possibility that Kirby co-plotted FF #1 with Stan (prior to the synopsis being written). So I thought you were suggesting that Kirby's claims about Spider-Man refuted that possibility.
QUOTE:
| Isn't that just an important as plot and art? It's not as obvious, but it's still important. |
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I agree that Stan's scripting was very important, particularly given the fact that both Kirby and Ditko had a tin ear for writing dialogue. Also important was Lee's editorial/plot influence on Kirby. The New Gods can be meandering and unfocused, with new characters and plotlines constantly being introduced. I suspect it was Stan's influence as co-plotter that gave the FF more of a narrative focus and coherency.
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 3
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John Byrne wrote:
| One of the things that makes me the most crazy in all this, is the way the Kirby boosters cast Stan as the guy who claims to have "created everything," yet we find so many instances of Stan handing out credit while Kirby (or his supporters) claims to have "created everything." |
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Stan does claim to have conceived the characters entirely by himself and plotted their origin stories by himself, with no input from the artists. He credits the artists with designing the appearance of the characters, but not with any other part of character creation. In regard to character creation, I believe he is taking too much credit and that the artists did have a role in the character conception (powers, origin story) also.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 07 November 2014 at 12:45pm
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Anthony J Lombardi
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 4
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Stan does claim to have conceived the characters entirely by himself and plotted their origin stories by himself, with no input from the artists. He credits the artists with designing the appearance of the characters, but not with any other part of character creation. In regard to character creation, I believe he is taking too much credit and that the artists did have a role in the character conception (powers, origin story) also. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I've heard Stan say things like this before. He does go on to say that he believes that the person who first got the idea as the creator.
I won't say that means he is taking too much credit. He has never denied that other people created the visuals. What it sounded like to me was it was his opinion that who ever gets the idea first is the creator.
I agree to a certain point with that. But since Stan had to rely on others to create the visuals for his idea the credit for the creations must be shared. The right idea and picture both have to be in place. It had to be Ditko's Spider-Man and Stan's ideas. I don't think Kirby's design would have had the same impact.
Still Stan's opinions aside about who created what. Even if he really felt he was the only one who created the characters because the ideas came from him. He still was responsible for the artists names being in the comics. It was Stan who said Kirby did this or Ditko did that. As far back as I can remember Stan has been doing that. He promoted them.
Some of the things I read from the people bashing Stan Lee have to do with him promoting himself so much and not promoting the artists more. With that I ask myself how much does he actually owe anyone else? Why is he obligated to promote anyone other than himself?
I also wonder how much of this bashing would be not happening if Stan wasn't successful. If he was a poor old man but everything else had been the same. Would people still be bashing him in defense of Kirby?
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
| I won't say that means he is taking too much credit. He has never denied that other people created the visuals. What it sounded like to me was it was his opinion that who ever gets the idea first is the creator. |
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The thing is, Kirby also claimed to have gotten the ideas first. So it's one guy's word against the other's.
It's great that Stan praises the artists so much, and gives them credit for the importance of designing the characters. But the question is, did they do more than that? I think it's likely that Kirby came up with some of the initial ideas, and helped develop those ideas, and helped co-plot the origin stories. And Stan is not giving him credit for those things. To me, that is taking too much of the credit.
And no, I'm not suggesting that Kirby is faultless or that his words should be taken as gospel. He obviously took WAY too much of the credit in those notorious late-80s interviews. Since both guys are claiming credit, I think the truth is likely somewhere in the middle and that they both contributed to the conception and initial development of the characters.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 6
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So often it seems that Stan "taking all the credit" really means he isn't GIVING all the credit, to Kirby. Even for Spider-Man!
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Steve De Young
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 7
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Every time I go back and reread the Fourth World material I gain more appreciation for Stan's part in early Marvel. Yes, Kirby by himself could fill countless pages with amazing visuals and mind blowing ideas, but only occasionally did those coalesce into something resembling a proper story. And his dialogue was about as natural as a can of Spam.
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Paul Kimball
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 8
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Hmm, I love the 4th world, story as well. Different strokes I guess. I always looked at his over the top dialogue as being part of the charm, but then again I like it when someone says "by Neptune's trident" or "by the hoary hosts of hoggoth"
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Steve De Young
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 9
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Both dialogue examples you just gave were Stan.
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Paul Kimball
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | 10
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funny. I was just thinking of marvel dialogue I liked that wasn't from the 4th world(which I know isn't a marvel comic)
Edited by Paul Kimball on 07 November 2014 at 5:00pm
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Anthony J Lombardi
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| Posted: 07 November 2014 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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The thing is, Kirby also claimed to have gotten the ideas first. So it's one guy's word against the other's.
It's great that Stan praises the artists so much, and gives them credit for the importance of designing the characters. But the question is, did they do more than that? I think it's likely that Kirby came up with some of the initial ideas, and helped develop those ideas, and helped co-plot the origin stories. And Stan is not giving him credit for those things. To me, that is taking too much of the credit.
And no, I'm not suggesting that Kirby is faultless or that his words should be taken as gospel. He obviously took WAY too much of the credit in those notorious late-80s interviews. Since both guys are claiming credit, I think the truth is likely somewhere in the middle and that they both contributed to the conception and initial development of the characters.~~~~~~~~~~~
Obviously there are only two people who would know for certain. That would be Jack Kirby and Stan Lee.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 08 November 2014 at 2:27am | IP Logged | 12
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I think the evidence is right there in the story itself. I see things in the plot for FANTASTIC FOUR #1 that seem like Lee-isms, not Kirby-isms.
The love triangle (Ben going for Sue), the kid as equal to the adults, the girl as equal, the whole "radiation as catalyst" thing, the alliterative names (Reed Richards, Sue Storm, even Fantastic Four), the "down-to-earthiness" of their regular clothes and personalities, etc.--these all seem like Lee-isms to me.
Maybe Kirby plotted the next 100 issues and came up with all the super-cosmic stuff like Galactus and the Silver Surfer, the extra-noble Black Panther, the super high tech of Wakanda and the Hive and Attilan, etc., the highly imaginative alien races, and so much more!
If you look at the first 100 issues as "creating the Fantastic Four," then, yeah, we can give more of the credit to Kirby. If you are just looking at the first issue, then I would give the initial creation credit to Lee.
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