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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4505
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 1
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I consider Moore's writing very much like Alex Ross' paintings. They are not comic book stories or art, but use the same trappings. I appreciate stories that have more depth than Super Hero A stopping Super Villain B from petty crime. I appreciate art that is beyond pencils inked in black outlines then colored and printed. It's not what sustained me for years as a kid and young adult, but I can appreciate it. Someone pushing the envelope of the medium is interesting, but the envelope is not thick. And transforming the envelope to exclude kids has been a horrible development.
Addressing alcoholism, murder, sexual orientation, etc. has pushed the medium out of the hands of kids and is only accessible to adults. In my opinion that is sad. Imagine if baseball changed in such a way that it was PG-13 and nobody under the age of 13 could get it? Imagine if baseball was rated R and nobody under 18 was allowed in to see a game? How many kids would be worse off for those changes? It's been said here many times that publishers started pandering to adults and neglected the kids.
If we have to get so philosophic about comic book stories then we loose that intended audience. It's too bad that some of the best examples of good vs. evil were appropriated by a generation that demanded these characters address adult concerns. I think we need people like Moore and Ross to give us a new perspective, but I agree that new view should be VERY temporary. Unfortunately, it has become the norm.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 2
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JB: When I was doing Superman, there were fans who would
come up to my table at cons, brandishing a copy of
"Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow," and asking
why I didn't do stories "like that."
My response was to point out that Moore didn't have to
worry about a next issue. I did.
SER: Oh, I've met people who enjoyed "Generations" and
couldn't understand why you didn't write stories "as
gripping" during your "Superman" run. I pointed out that
"Generations" was an "imaginary story" and that you'd
never do a "real" story in which Lois Lane is dying of
cancer and Lex Luthor kills her, which drives Superman to
hunt down Lex and potentially murder him so that Batman
has to take him in.
"But he should have! What a story that would be!" I
heard. "It would *count* and Superman choosing to do time
in the Phantom Zone. Imagine the stories you could do
with all that weighing on him when he returns!"
Clearly not getting it. Clearly, to me, not getting what
makes superhero comics so great. And also what makes
"imaginary stories" great. They're a "what if" while in
the "real" stories, our heroes don't fail. Superman also
saves Lois. And Superman never "kills" Luthor.
"But that's boring after the one millionth time."
"THEN MOVE ON!"
But they don't.
Of course, the problem with desiring stories that "count"
is that you break the toys. "You've killed Lois and
Luthor.. what now?"
"Oh, Superman can bring Lois back to life -- curing her
cancer -- with Kryptonian science. And Luthor probably
faked his death to frame Superman."
"So, the stories didn't really count?"
"No, see..."
And so on.
So, comic book writers and artists now can give us the
"last" Captain America story and the "last" Spider-Man
story and get a good deal of press for it but we all know
the toys will be put back in place in time for the next
movie.
To borrow from Nietzsche, this approach has made the
"real" world "imaginary."
And personally, I think it's a greater achievement to
earn a spot in the GREATEST SUPERMAN STORIES EVER TOLD
with, say, SUPERMAN No. 2 ("The Secret Revealed") or
"Metropolis 900 Miles" from SUPERMAN No. 9. These stories
"count" because they are good -- no "firsts," no "lasts,"
no "stunts" that are later undone.
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 3
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I think most of Moore's best work is outside the superhero genre. And I don't like THE KILLING JOKE either. (Aside from Bolland's gorgeous art.)
One bit about TKJ that gets ignored, though -- it really wasn't meant to be a canonical story. Batman kills the Joker at the end. I'm serious. See:
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/08/batman-kills-th e-joker-thats-why-its-called-the-killing-joke/
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133324
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 4
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Boy, I've seen people dig for "greater truths " in Moore's work, but saying Batman kills the Joker in TKJ .... Well, that ranges close to self- delusion.
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 5
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It explains the story's title, no?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133324
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 6
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It explains the story's title, no? •• No.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 7
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A joke that "kills" -- performs well with the audience --
can be called a "killing joke." That's what Joker is
attempting to do for the entire story.
The only thing Morrison's theory does is make the story
*worse.* Gordon makes Batman promise to bring the Joker
in "by the book" -- to show him that their way "works."
Truly good men can't be broken by "one bad day." The
Joker is looking for absolution for his awful acts but
won't find them by trying to drive Gordon insane or The
Batman to murder.
But instead, The Batman ignores his promise to Gordon and
just kills The Joker because the clearly deranged man
does not believe he can truly change.
What?
I've wondered if the image of Batman and the Joker
laughing together in the rain is where Moore started and
then worked his way backward. The problem is that there's
no story that could possibly justify such an ending. The
Batman doesn't find The Joker funny. *Nothing* the Joker
says could make the Batman laugh. Sure, maybe in the Dick
Sprang days when The Joker didn't manage to actually kill
or maim anyone and The Batman has captured him in broad
daylight and he makes a witty remark in the last panel.
But not in the post-Joker's Five Way Revenge days. The
Joker's a cold-blooded murderer. It makes as much sense
of Aaron Hotchner yukking it up with an un-sub before the
credits roll.
(And Gibson would have made a good Batman, I think.)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133324
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 8
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Yes. The most off-putting thing -- of many -- is Batman sharing a jolly larf with the man who has been maiming and killing people.
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Roy Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 1323
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
| And I don't like THE KILLING JOKE either |
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Neither does Moore, although is reasons are different from yours and mine ;-)
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 10
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Back to THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN...suppose Luthor's 'cures for everything' turned out to be temporary? It makes perfect sense that Luthor could lull Superman into a false sense of security...but how can he be 'the bastard who killed Superman, and STILL be 'the man who cured all disease'?
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Lars Sandmark
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3144
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | 11
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Just my own two cents of course, but I remember thinking that Killing Joke was crap. I bought it for the art and when I sat down to read it I was really disappointed.
I dislike when the bad guys win, and hated what happened to Batgirl.
To this day I have no idea why Alan Moore is regarded as a favourite comicbook writer. My favourites wrote good stories.
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Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: 28 July 2014 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 12
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I always like the What If stories too. I liked that you could do anything you wanted and no one would be upset that you ruined their favorite characters.
And then something changed. All titles became a What If playground.
I've called it professional trolling before. When a creator does something they know will tick off fans all for the sake of running a story or twist that's never been done before, even though they know, deep down, it makes no sense.
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