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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 06 July 2014 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 1  

I just read this and found it to be fair and balanced concerning Stan Lee. It would be nice if everyone was the same way. No matter how you feel about the Man.

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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 06 July 2014 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | 2  

I wouldn't go so far as to say the article is "fair and balanced" in its treatment
of Stan Lee, but it is an interesting read. Thanks for the link, Anthony.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 06 July 2014 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | 3  

Barry Windsor Smith called Lee and Kirby the Lennon and McCartney
of comics. I think the same can be said about Lee and many of the
artists he collaborated with. That's kind of how I've always seen it. In
the case of Lee and Kirby, both are amazing creators in there own
right. But you put them together and magic happens. I don't think any
one person would've been as successful if they hadn't gotten together.



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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 06 July 2014 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | 4  

What was unfair about it Wallace? The writer gives both sides of the argument.

At the end the writer states that he leans more towards Kirby. But he didn't try to force his opinion on the reader. Nor try to lead you into thinking his way. Can we ask for more than that?


Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 06 July 2014 at 8:25pm
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Brian Peck
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Posted: 06 July 2014 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | 5  

Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko and Bill Everett are like Keith
Richard and Mick Jagger (Rolling Stones) or David Gilmour and Roger
Waters (Pink Floyd). The combination of each group are stronger than
the parts.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 12:24am | IP Logged | 6  

Is Stan Lee's legacy really "complicated" to anyone outside of a specific set of comic fandom?
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 3:55am | IP Logged | 7  

>>...you’re an absolute lunatic if you don’t think Kirby was doing the vast majority of the work in their partnership...<<

What does "the vast majority" mean vis-a-vis their collaboration?
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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:01am | IP Logged | 8  

I would say reread the article. I found very little to be fair or balanced. I find it marginalized Stan Lee's contributions to the actual work and praised his salesmanship. There are at least two instances where the writer says Jack Kirby did the vast majority of the work. The writer seems to feel the balance was, Stan being the huckster and Jack's genius story telling, and those, in his estimation, are the equal parts that led to Marvel being a success.
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Marc Cheek
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:05am | IP Logged | 9  

I would say reread the article. I found very little to be fair or balanced. I find it marginalized Stan Lee's contributions to the actual work and praised his salesmanship. There are at least two instances where the writer says Jack Kirby did the vast majority of the work. The writer seems to feel the balance was, Stan being the huckster and Jack's genius story telling, and those, in his estimation, are the equal parts that led to Marvel being a success.

**

Pretty much what I took out of it.  I think it's pretty safe to say that the Marvel Silver Age would not have occured without the collaboration of Stan and Jack or Stan and Ditko, etc.  It was a pretty good read though.

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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:25am | IP Logged | 10  

What was unfair about it Wallace? The writer gives both sides of the
argument.

At the end the writer states that he leans more towards Kirby. But he didn't
try to force his opinion on the reader. Nor try to lead you into thinking his
way. Can we ask for more than that?



Please see Michael Sommerville's post. His response nicely sums up my
thoughts.
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Steve Ogden
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 7:21am | IP Logged | 11  

I realize that people will  not agree with my opinions on this. And I realize that our host has more knowledge and is more informed than any of us here on the inner workings of the comic book business.

I am tired of the "Legacy of Stan Lee" crap. I do have my opinion here and like I said some people will disagree with me and tear it apart. But, it is somewhat of informed opinion, I think.  It is not a knee-jerk reaction to anything.

The Legacy of Stan Lee? That Legacy is on the shoulders of Jack and Steve. It always should be from the mouth of any fan of comic books;  The Legacy of Stan and Jack or the the Legacy of Stan and Steve. I know this is all been beaten to death. But, it never fails to keep coming up in fan forums and articles.

What has Stan Lee Really done after the height of the Silver Age? He did some stuff here and ther but nothing like when he was with Jack and /or Steve. Oh, he gave us Ravage in the 1990's? Ravage! Jack gave us some wonderful characters when he went to DC. Jack gave one of DC's greatest villains. Those characters are still big players in the DC universe. Jack's ideas and concepts are still be done today with other comic book companies. And he did all without Stan Lee.

I am sure a lot of folks here have read early Challengers of the Unknown. It is reads like an early Fantastic Four comic. It does not have the polish that Stan would give the Fantastic Four. But ideas are there and it is Jack.

The things that Jack Kirby did in the Golden Age (Jack was already a pro when Stan was getting coffee and sweeping up), post Silver Age and the Bronze Age show the creativity that Jack Kirby had compared to Stan Lee. That is why I believe that the ideas and concepts are more Jack than Stan. Of course Stan polishes things up with dialog.

And, here is the thing too, I have been reading and collecting comics for almost 40 years. I am not saying I am an expert but I believe I do have an "informed" opinion. I have never read or heard of Stan Lee sincerely telling people what Jack and Steve have done. I do not think he is about that. I really believe he is about Stan Lee. He has to know what the current mindset is and this debate going on. His "faulty" memory excuse is getting old. I think he picks and choses what he wants remember. 

To me he should go out of his way every time he has the chance to say something about this. Something to the effect of "I could not have done this without Jack or Steve" or "The Marvel Universe would not have been what is, if it was not for Jack and Steve" just something. It will go along way and it will take him 10 seconds. The spotlight needs to be shared.

I can't tell you the number of times I have taken original artwork to get framed and the framer will ask me if it DRAWN by Stan Lee or do I have anything done by Stan Lee. And, it could be any comic book page. This is how far reaching all of this is. And it pisses me off.

The Baltimore Comic Con a few years ago had their promo poster drawn by Scott Campbell showing Stan Lee with most of the main Marvel characters that he "created" coming up from behind him (Stan). One of the characters was CAPTAIN AMERICA. I don't think one person cared or even batted an eye that Captain America was there or that the poster clearly shows the fallacy that Stan Lee alone created these characters. The poster of course sold out and shoved in front of Stan and he signed away. Kinda like how he signs away Jack and Steve.
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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 07 July 2014 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 12  

You have to understand the media: it (both media producers and consumers) feeds on the concept that a SINGLE PERSON heroically did it all.

It's like the Olympics, everyone remembers the gold medal winner but not the silver and bronze.

And who was the second man to walk on the moon again?

Lee's fame outside of comes comes from his native ability (and probable desire) to be liked. When has he ever demonstrated his actual skill or creative process during an interview? I can say the same about Isaac Asimov, an absolutely brilliant and funny man, who was barely given 30 words of air time to demonstrare his abilities.

Lee and Asimov, as far as the media is concerned, are just figureheads good for a blip in viewership.

As to what Stan seems to have contributed, consider this: he was getting finished, wordless pages from Ditko without plot discussion. He had to figure out what was going on in the art in front of him, remember what had gone one before (not his plots but Steve's plots) and he had to dialogue and caption all that in the Marvel Tragicomedic style.

That's hard enough to do when someone sends you a image with an invitation of "Caption this!"

Stan has a unique ability to give each character its own voice. Johnny Storm and Peter Parker are the same age, both teenagers, but they do not sound alike. Dr. Blake does not sound like Tony Stark.

Yeah, I think Stan got too big a share of the limelight relative to Jack and Steve but that is the media's fault: the media loves the idea that the charming dude was doing it all for the same reason that many comic book fans wanted to believe that Bob Kane was doing it all. The media loves to promote and sell heroes that are loved by the camera.

And, let's face it, Jack Kirby would never win any prizes for his glib charm and personality. And Ditko refuses to be interviewed or have his picture taken. Of the three, Stan is the one that came the closest to having star power. Or to be exploited by the media, take your pick.

And, these guys grew up in the great depression where it was dog-eat-dog to get by. Children reared in this climate would hardly develop a reflex of generous full disclosure on the secret of their success.

When Simon & Kirby were running Mainline, they were no diffirrent than any other editors at the time.

What remains to be uncovered is whether Stan had let the idea of "speaking to management about giving you a piece of the pie" float around to Jack and Steve, as a means of inciting their best efforts.

I have read somewhere that both Steve and Jack had expected some sort of reward for their efforts beyong work for hire.

I have also read that at one point Martin Goodman tried to lower Jack Kirby's wages, feeling that Jack was getting paid too much. Now, either Goodman was a blistering moron or Stan had NOT communicated the value of Kirby to Goodman ... again, take your pick.

But if you choose to think that Stan had not disclosed the full weight of Kirby's contributions to Goodman -- clearly a very bad risk to the company -- then you can draw further conclusions about what Stan would be willing to share of Kirby's contributions to the rest of the world.

And then there was that Stan interview (in Search of Steve Ditko?) where he admitted Spider-Man might not have been as successful without Ditko's contributions and then immediately expressed regret at having made that admission.
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