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Michael Penn
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Posted: 27 June 2014 at 6:07am | IP Logged | 1  

...it's possible the graduation storyline had been suggested to Ditko by Stan or discussed by them back when they were still speaking to each other, even though it was not used until many months later.  But even if that were the case, Ditko wouldn't have plotted and drawn that story if he was opposed to the idea of Peter graduating. Ditko was the one driving the bus at the time that story appeared, and no major plotline went into the book if he did not want it.  

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But as editor-in-chief, wasn't Stan managing the whole "bus" company? And if aging characters was happening on all lines across the company, why is it any less likely that this was assumed from the get-go and that Ditko drew it as part of his job but disagreed with it? 

I understand the basis of your presumptions, Jason, and I apologize if this seems like I'm artificially making any major issue here, except that JB says something different and, for whatever reason, he doesn't wish to explain why. For me, one who is both not deeply informed about this era but also very interested in it, that's pretty tantalizing: thus, giving JB the "insider's" benefit of the doubt, I'm just presuming the other way than what you've been asserting, and doing so doesn't appear to be any less likely.
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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 27 June 2014 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 2  

The problem with an 18-yr-old Robin *is* that he's a young adult. The 
Batman and Robin relationship changes entirely. It became a too easy 
option for friction -- adult son clashing with Dad.

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Did this happen much on B:TAS? Not that I can recall.
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Robert White
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Posted: 27 June 2014 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 3  

The New Batman Adventures (or the final 24 episodes of the four volume set) dealt with Robin's transition into Nightwing. To get to Nightwing, popular thought is that there has to be friction between the two since it leads to more dramatic stories. I accept it, and it does lead to good stories in the series, but it doesn't have to be the only option. (I have all this fresh in my head since I just finished all the Batman volumes and I'm now on the first of three Superman volumes)
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 27 June 2014 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 4  

 Michael Penn wrote:
I understand the basis of your presumptions, Jason, and I apologize if this seems like I'm artificially making any major issue here, except that JB says something different and, for whatever reason, he doesn't wish to explain why.


JB hasn't cited a source, so we don't know if he's repeating a rumor he heard, citing something told to him by Stan or someone directly involved, or simply misremembering.  But we do know that inaccurate rumors about Ditko do circulate quite a bit.  I've seen JB mention the rumor that Ditko and Lee argued about the identity of the Green Goblin, and that's almost certainly not true (Ditko denies it and claims he always intended Osborn to be the Goblin, and the logistics of Lee and Ditko's working relationship at the time support that claim).

At the time the graduation story was published, Stan was likely afraid of losing Ditko.  He had no idea Romita would be able to step into the job and not only maintain but actually increase Spider-Man's sales.  He likely thought Ditko was indispensable, given the fact that he was willing to give him several then-unprecedented things:  plotting credit, pay for plotting, and the freedom to plot and draw stories without any prior editorial approval.  No other artist at Marvel was receiving those things at the time.

We also know that Ditko is an extremely uncompromising individual.  I've heard at least a half-dozen anecdotes about him refusing jobs or quitting jobs rather than draw something he did not want to draw. 

Given this, it seems extremely unlikely that Ditko would have plotted and drawn the graduation story if he disagreed with the idea of Peter graduating.  Stan had no real way to force him to do anything he didn't want to do, since he was afraid of Ditko quitting while Ditko was not afraid of losing his job.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 June 2014 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

Speculation AND mindreading! Throw in a dig at Stan and you'll have the trifecta.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 27 June 2014 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 6  

Speculation based on the available evidence.  Since (to my knowledge) neither Stan nor Steve has spoken or written publicly about the decision to graduate Peter, a discussion of the motivations and origins of said decision would invariably involve speculation, based on what we know about their contributions to the stories.  If you have evidence that contradicts or disproves my speculation I'd certainly be happy to hear it.  Steve was plotting the stories by himself.  Why would an uncompromising individual like him plot and draw a story about something that he didn't want to happen to the main character?

And why would I want to make "a dig at Stan"?  My comments haven't been intended to denigrate Stan.  Discussing their relationship and the collaborative roles they had is not inherently insulting to Stan.  To the best of my knowledge, I haven't said anything factually inaccurate about their roles at that time.  Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
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