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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 1
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There's a definite forest/trees scenario, here. Many of you cannot see anything "wrong" with the characters being older because you have no first hand experience of it being otherwise. Whenever you started reading, that was "right". I started reading superhero comics when I was 6, and consumed them voraciously until I was 14. That's eight years during which Dick Grayson aged not a day. Peter Parker aged not a day. Johnny Storm aged not a day. AND I DIDN'T NOTICE! Because I was exactly the target audience. When that target began to shift -- for many reason -- that's when things started to go wrong. And AFTER that point is when many of you started reading.
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 2
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I started reading regularly during Roger Stern's run on Amazing Spider-Man. I was thirteen, and Peter as a grad student didn't make me bat an eye. Today, though, re reading those issues, there's a nagging voice in my head that sometimes whispers, "He shouldn't be this old. Harry and Liz shouldn't be married and expecting a baby."
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 3
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One side effect, arguably, of "aging" or "growth" in
comics is that characters become associated with "events"
rather than characterization.
For example, the Green Goblin, over time, stopped being
defined simply as a creepy Goblin-like creature on a
glider but as Norman Osborn, who discovers Spider-Man's
identity, kills his girlfriend Gwen and then dies shortly
afterward. Those "events" or some version then has to be
replayed on TV or film adaptations.
Gwen Stacey died in 1973! Yet she appears in film
versions of Spider-Man thirty to forty years later. Why?
Can anyone name a reason beyond the fact that she died?
Then there's Jean Grey -- who can't just be Marvel Girl
with telepathic powers. She must become Dark Phoenix and
she must die.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12709
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB didn't mention a source, but I think he must be either mistaken or misremembering in his claim that Ditko was opposed to the graduation. The graduation story occurred at a time Ditko was sole plotter of Spider-Man, when he and Stan were no longer speaking to each other.
***
Jason, why couldn't it be the case that Peter's graduation had been assumed from the start, since all the characters in every Marvel comicbook back then were aging in real time?
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4620
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 5
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Michael, you're right that it's possible the graduation storyline had been suggested to Ditko by Stan or discussed by them back when they were still speaking to each other, even though it was not used until many months later. But even if that were the case, Ditko wouldn't have plotted and drawn that story if he was opposed to the idea of Peter graduating. Ditko was the one driving the bus at the time that story appeared, and no major plotline went into the book if he did not want it. Ditko obviously thought it was a good idea, and appeared to want to move the character forward to some degree. I'm not saying I agree it was a good idea, though I'm loathe to second-guess something the character's creators did as "wrong." It is quite possible Ditko would have decided to put the brakes on Peter's growth just as Lee and Romita did, if he hadn't left the book.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 26 June 2014 at 5:10pm
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 6
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I started to think Dick Grayson should have been kept in his early teens forever, and remained Robin. Why did he have to be aged out of the role for Batman to have solo "dark avenger" stories? Have him stay home some nights. Have Batman tell him to take a night off from patrolling the city to do his homework or get some rest. Or, even simpler, have him just not be mentioned in some stories. There didn't have to be a way to get rid of him for him to not play a part in every Batman story. This way, we can have Batman stories with or without Robin, and questions of Batman aging if Robin has aged don't need to be addressed at all.
***
That's fine if you actually like the whole kid sidekick idea. If, like me, you really don't, then you shouldn't have a problem with an 18-year-old Dick Grayson who only shows up very rarely in Batman or Detective Comics. Preferably in the Neal Adams suit than in the Bob Kane one.
I have to assume that Paul Dini agrees with me, since in B:TAS, when Grayson first showed up, he was already 18 and in college, and wearing the "Tim Drake" Robin suit.
For further emphasis: it was when Tim Drake was introduced to become Robin III that I stopped reading the Bat-books for a long while. I was still in my teens when Drake first appeared. (Did I mention that I really hate kid sidekicks?)
Edited by Jason Schulman on 26 June 2014 at 6:31pm
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17699
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 6:43pm | IP Logged | 7
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I like kid sidekicks. When I'm not in the mood for them, I read comics that
don't feature them.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | 8
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That's fine if you actually like the whole kid sidekick idea. If, like me, you really don't, then you shouldn't have a problem with an 18-year-old Dick Grayson who only shows up very rarely in Batman or Detective Comics. Preferably in the Neal Adams suit than in the Bob Kane one.••• And this scenario would not play with a 12 year old Robin, because...?
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Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 9
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...because 12 year old Robin is a kid and, hence, a kid sidekick. Eighteen year old Robin is, at least, a young adult.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 10
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I don't have a problem with kid sidekicks. Robin worked fine for almost
30 years. If you want to do Batman solo stories without him, there were
countless ways to do it without aging him. Bruce Timm did this well with
his version of Tim Drake. Some episodes featured him with Batman,
others featured Batman with Batgirl (a pairing I enjoyed) and some
were just Batman with no explanation provided or needed for why he
was alone.
The problem with an 18-yr-old Robin *is* that he's a young adult. The
Batman and Robin relationship changes entirely. It became a too easy
option for friction -- adult son clashing with Dad. This rarely happened
with 12-yr-old Robin because the relationship was clearly father and
son when the father is an unquestioned source of authority.
My issue with young adult Robin/Nightwing is the same as
twentysomething Spider-Man. What works for a kid doesn't work for a
young adult. Robin was all about potential: Some day, he'd replace
Batman. He might even be better by virtue of being trained by Batman.
But it was clear that the late teen/early twenties Dick Grayson would
always be Julian or Sean Lennon.
(Based on how Neal Adams and other artists of the period drew the
teen wonder, it even looked like he would be about four or six inches
shorter and definitely slighter than Batman.)
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6427
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| Posted: 26 June 2014 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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Jason: ...because 12 year old Robin is a kid and, hence, a kid sidekick. Eighteen year old Robin is, at least, a young adult.
**
Doesn't wash for me. A 12 year old has to go to school, has to get his rest and would have endless reasons to NOT be present if the writer only kept him out of the stories. Everything you say you like about an 18 year old works for a 12 year old.
I think Batman and Robin have a classic form that works the best when embraced. I think most characters do.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
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| Posted: 27 June 2014 at 3:35am | IP Logged | 12
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...because 12 year old Robin is a kid and, hence, a kid sidekick.•• A couple of noted sidekicks: 
There's no age limit on the job.
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