| Author |
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
The debate over real time is another indicator of the changed, shrunken audience. Time was, it was only the outer fringes of fandom that obsessed about it. (And a few pros.) People who were easily ignored. But the shift in the balance of power to fans-turned-pro, plus the shrinking marketplace, brought the fringe closer to the center, especially as more and more of those f-t-ps themselves came from the fringes.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
It's worth noting, though, that early Marvel stories did seem to take place in more-or-less real time. Peter Parker graduated high school and went to college. So did Johnny Storm. (Johnny's personality changed, too -- he became less of a "hothead.") Reed Richards and Sue Storm got married (which didn't make much difference -- they were already engaged in FF #1) and had a kid (in retrospect, a big error). The original X-Men progressed to their "graduate costumes." Etc.
Other things happened that involved the passage of time evening if they didn't involve anyone maturing, like the Avengers' continuously shifting line-up, the Hulk's changing personality, Hank Pym changing costumed identities, the changes in Iron Man's armor, etc.
So pretending that NO time ever passed was always a bit harder for Marvel than for DC (or THE SIMPSONS), i think.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
I wondered how long that would take.Early Marvel -- the first five, even six years -- was a time of experimentation. Stan, Jack, Steve, were trying things that were deliberately different from the "standard model." (And it should be noted that Ditko objected to Parker graduating from high school. He felt Peter should remain that age forever.) When it became more and more apparent that Marvel was going to keep going and growing, Stan and the gang started putting the brakes on. One of the most obvious examples of this was shipping Franklin Richards off to live with Agatha Harkness. Killing him was not an option in those days, so they removed him, and thus removed a constant reminder that time was not passing "normally." Of course, for some, those early years serve as a benchmark against which all that follows must be measured, even if it requires the most absurd "math" to make to all work.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17699
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
(And it should be noted that Ditko objected to Parker graduating from high
school. He felt Peter should remain that age forever.)
—
Seconded!
And this from a guy whose top Spider-Man stories are probably from the
post-secondary, John Romita, Sr. era...
Edited by Wallace Sellars on 24 June 2014 at 4:38pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
The advantage THE SIMPSONS has, as cartoon, that comics
shares is that their characters can remain "on model"
forever, and I believe more than anything else, that's
what accounts for the former's longevity specifically.
If THE SIMPSONS had been live action, the 10-year-old
Bart Simpson in the pilot would now be 35, Lisa 33, and
Maggie 26. That's an entirely different series.
The real-life passage of times ensures that certain
concepts will end. Many argue that BUFFY was at its best
when set in high school, and although later seasons had
their good points, they were a necessary evil due to the
aging of the cast.
SPIDER-MAN was not BUFFY. Peter Parker never had to age.
If the Marvel series were all live-action series of the
'60s (like, say, STAR TREK), the actor who played Parker
would be closing in on 70 (!).
I've also wondered why Hollywood was able to produce a
long-running series of James Bond films without
approaching the subject of aging (it's the same man --
although recast -- up to the recent "reboot" with Craig),
but Christopher Nolan had to make *his* Batman, with an
origin and a finale. I think part of the magic of these
characters is that they are eternal, and I'd be impressed
with the director who came to Batman or Spider-Man or
Superman and gave us a couple good stories and moved on
with the character intact for someone else.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Gene Best
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
I've never really thought about this before. Perhaps it's because I grew up with Peter Parker going to college, Reed and Sue having a child, The Falcon getting a "new" red and white costume, Capt Stacy and eventually Gwen dying, etc. - that I was conditioned to think of comics to be on some kind of "timeline".
I experience The Simpsons more like a comic strip (or maybe Harvey comics). I don't expect Charlie Brown, Dennis the Menace or The Family Circus to age or change.
Again, I've never really thought about this - as a kid, I just rolled with the stories and didn't think that much about it. |
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Traditionally, superhero comics operated in the same non-time as strips or funny animal comics. They took place NOW, and visual evidence to the contrary was just "topical references."In a way, I blame the Sixties for the altered perception. Suddenly fashions were changing every five minutes, and a comic drawn as little as two years ago looked dated. It was harder for those who were not prepared to play the game to accept that time was NOT passing.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Franklin Richards really was -- and is -- the big problem. Which writer brought him back? Roy Thomas?
(And now, to add to the problem, there's Valeria Richards...thanks, Chris Claremont...)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
|
| Posted: 24 June 2014 at 11:27pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
It's impossible to pin down specific time frames, or problem characters, and point to those instances as clear, objective, markers of when things went wrong. For all the problems caused by Parker graduating high-school, the Spiderverse gained a lot of great stuff from the Empire University era. (Even though the majority of great concepts were created in the 60's, I wouldn't want to wipe out the careers of JB, Perez, Simonson, Miller, etc, who did stuff just as good in later decades.)
What I find works best is the DC Animated Universe approach; take all the best stuff, toss out the crap or stuff that doesn't play well with the rest, and maintain that basic level of consistency and quality. I'd like to think that fans and creators have enough history to study at this point to realize that the characters are best served using that model. It can be argued, without much effort, that BTAS is THE single best representation of the character, comics included. This has to be glaring, and uncomfortable, for some of those canny enough to get the real picture.
We have a thriving creator owned market now, so there is an outlet for personal and experimental stuff (which I like too). Why must mainstream superheroes be burdened with the personal angst of a select few fan-creators/editors who only seem interested in churning out mediocre "professional fan-fiction" for all eternity? It's not about picking the Spider-Man from the point you started reading and going with that, it's about looking at the totality of the thing and taking the long view.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7786
|
| Posted: 25 June 2014 at 6:08am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
I've also wondered why Hollywood was able to produce a
long-running series of James Bond films without
approaching the subject of aging (it's the same man --
although recast -- up to the recent "reboot" with Craig) ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Yes, and wasn't it in his first film that he gets referred to as a dinosaur by M? Or was that in one of the Brosnan films?
We are now so far removed from 'every issue is someone's first' that we are almost in the realm of 'every issue is someone's last'. The characters that are in print now are pretty unrecognisable in a lot of cases - hell, the wimp Cyclops in the X-Men film is closer to the character than the head case that currently runs around the comics. And we shall not talk of Professor X.
I'm good for the illusion of change and that is something that the SIMPSONS does very well. There has even been some actual change with the death of characters. But the main thrust, and the characters remain the same. No one took over the show and said 'You know what, let's split the parents and do a running marathon about how they fight for custody of the kids'
The sad thing about comics is that this would be the first thing someone would think to do given that situation. And they would be allowed to do it.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
|
| Posted: 25 June 2014 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
For all the problems caused by Parker graduating high-school, the Spiderverse gained a lot of great stuff from the Empire University era. (Even though the majority of great concepts were created in the 60's, I wouldn't want to wipe out the careers of JB, Perez, Simonson, Miller, etc, who did stuff just as good in later decades.)••• Subtract the changes in window dressing, and how many of those stories absolutely could not have taken place with a teenaged Spider-Man still in high school? (To those thinking the sheer volume of stories surely must indicate passage of time, I say get with the program or find another hobby!)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
|
| Posted: 25 June 2014 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Gwen Stacy* and Harry Osborn could have been introduced as new
high school students. The shift to college is a major change -- much
like on BUFFY -- that is not as seamless as some people think. You are
forced to spend time with very different people in high school, which
you aren't so much in college. Thus, there's a loss of conflict. We saw
this start to happen with Flash Thompson.
*Stacy is a character whose entire popularity is based in her dying. If
she had not died, I doubt she would have been in three Spider-Man
movies. Of course, her death is one story so you still have the reason
she was killed in the first place (she's not an especially compelling
character).
These "events," which should be avoided, create "fixed points in time."
If Reed and Sue had to have a kid, it would be better to introduce him
as part of the set-up all along. Once there was a birth, fans reacted as if
time was clearly passing. Same with Peter graduating from high school
and getting married.
This is why I am impressed that THE SIMPSONS has gone 25 years
without adding another child (though it's satirized this concept often). In
a live action show, this might be necessary to explain a real-life
pregnancy and maintain a dynamic as the older children mature, but
why mix with the core concept when you don't have to?
And like in comics, the birth of a fourth Simpsons child would lead to
demands that Maggie age and then by a certain amount, as we saw
with Franklin.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
|
|
Topic Closed)
