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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 1  

The vibe I'm getting in the New 52 is that there are 52 copies of Earth in parallel dimensions--but there is only ONE Apokolips and only one set of New Gods, including Darkseid. In other words, there are some things that are unique among the multiverse.
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Jeffrey Rice
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 2  

Old Fanzine joke: How many Roy Thomas characters does it take to change a lightbulb? 51. One to change the lightbulb and 50 to explain how it really happened.

This is the man that had a villain steal Namor's green trunks in an Invader's issue to explain why he had black trunks in waaaay back in Avengers 71.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 3  

Andrew, I like that idea a great deal. Are the Apokolips incursions in the title "Earth-2" reasonably consistent with what we've seen of Darkseid and his crew elsewhere in the Nu52 to this point? If so, I give them props.

God lord, Jeffrey. I actually remember that from the Invaders, now that you mention it. He also had to cobble something together to explain Cap's triangular shield as well, didn't he? So bizarre...

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Jeffrey Rice
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | 4  

Yes!  How nice of Agent Axis to swap Cap's shield! And imagine waking to find yourself chained with some creepy dude proudly holding up your trunks!

Relive that run!


Edited by Jeffrey Rice on 18 June 2014 at 10:03pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 June 2014 at 4:01am | IP Logged | 5  

Roy, while working on THOR, excused the fact that Marvel's version of the character did not fit seamlessly into Norse legends by saying "some of those myths didn't happen." There is something very much like irony, then, in the way Roy seemed determined to establish that EVERYTHING at Marvel and DC "happened."

When I got into The Biz, circa 1975, "continuity" was already becoming a much contested word. There were those who felt that everything must be made to fit, whether at Marvel or DC. There was even a myth, to be found in some quarters even today, that the Marvel Universe* had a "perfect" continuity, unlike DC's, which was jumbled and confusing. (That latter notion is, of course, what eventually led to CRISIS.)

Back then, there were those who insisted that every jot and tittle was "real," and should be considered when crafting ANY story. At the same time there were those who insisted "continuity" meant that Superman was from Krypton and should always be from Krypton, but some story done twenty years earlier was not so important.

I lean mostly toward the second camp. It can be fun to play "archeologist," but one should not BEGIN the building of a story there. One should not BEGIN thinking "How can I explain Captain Fonebone's multiple origins?" Rather, one should just putter along, crafting stories, and perhaps, one day, realize that THIS story could be a way to explain Captain Fonebone's multiple origin stories --- if we MUST!

How different would the world (DC especially) be, I sometimes wonder, if I had accepted Dick Giordano's offer to write THE HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE and "blow up everything at the end"? Eventually that rather straightforward concept devolved into CRISIS and, if anything, things were left even MORE messed up than they were before!!

--------------

* I am forced to use it for convenience of communication, but I cannot tell you how much I loathe that term. The first time I heard it, I felt someone drive a take thru my heart. Marvel stories and characters, as established by Lee and Kirby very early in the FF's run, took place HERE, in the same world we live in, not in some "parallel universe." I don't recall when the term first appeared, but it was, for me, the death knell of the REAL Marvel.

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Ed Love
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Posted: 19 June 2014 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 6  

Seems some remember All-Star Squadron differently than me. The whole point of the team was it was to be an organization of ALL of America's superheroes to protect the US and undertake special missions. I remember being disappointed at first that it seemed to be focusing on the heroes I knew next to nothing about.as opposed to my favorites in the JSA. I think it was smart and I liked how it worked out ultimately by focusing on a small core that he could do mostly anything with and to give a bit of character-continuity and ongoing sub-plots every month while weaving in other heroes to guest-star for specific stories.

While he did try to have Hawkman cameo in every issue, the book actually only had Hawkman as a significant character in just a couple of stories, mainly the first couple. The Atom got about as much play. Which is a bit apropo, in the 40s, those two were in the most JSA stories.

I didn't mind him tying the Freedom Fighters to Earth-2. Seems he cannot win. He's held to task for being too slavish to continuity and then complained about because his use of the Quality heroes contradicted a few scenes from one story. Even so, there were a ton of Quality heroes we never got around to seeing.

And he brought back Dr. Occult!

Don't recall any legal issues regarding Captain Triumph. His appearance in the photo for the cover was simply a mistake because Captain Triumph's didn't debut until 1943 and America is already involved in the War in his origin story.

Thought Robotman fit in fine with the All-Star Squadron. The later stories with his robot dog are a little more light-hearted, but otherwise the stories were pretty much straight-forward for the day. Plastic Man and Johnny Thunder worked well  too. for that matter. It's James Robinson's use of Robotman and Johnny Thunder that are travesties of the character.and the sanity challeged Plastic Man of post-Crisis.

I do think after the first couple years of the title, instead of using the continuity to springboard into some interesting and cool stories, they became more about the continuity itself. Although, some of that may have been him knowing about what was coming down the pike and editorial changing what they were telling him (originally he was told, he could continue the series regardless of what happened in CRISIS since it was set in the past). IThus, that last year was him just putting the series pretty much into a holding pattern. And each successive art team was less spectacular than before.
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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 19 June 2014 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 7  

Infinity Inc also diluted the E2 'franchise' Thomas had going on. From the moment they were introduced, he had locked himself into a 30-40 year gap between the 'then' of WWII/All Star Squadron and the 'now' of the present day DCU, either on Earth 1 OR Earth 2.

Infinity Inc and Thomas' insistance on clinging to WWII as a backdrop were  the main reasons we had to settle for Ian Karkull 'time energy keeps the JSaers and their spouses young' story instead of leaving an out that the floating 'now' would have been able to accomodate. Thomas may not have been the first to anchor the JSA and Earth 2 to the World War II era, but he certainly threw the anchor over the bow and into the weeds.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 20 June 2014 at 6:16am | IP Logged | 8  

Thomas may have felt that the JSA's service at home and abroad during WWII was integral to their histories and characters. The JSA is not the JSA if they debut during the 50's. Or the 60's. The Nu52 certainly goes a long way towards proving that JSA is not the JSA if they debut in modern times. Long before Tom Brokaw began going on about "the Greatest Generation," the JSA were right there on the comics page exemplifying the concept.

With the exploding Ian Karkull as their "Infinity Formula," there really wasn't any reason to remove that crucial element from what is, after all, their actual history.

Their kids, well, that unfortunate bunch were going to be an ongoing continuity tar pit regardless. Maybe we could blow up an Ian Karkull Jr....

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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 June 2014 at 6:30am | IP Logged | 9  

The solution to the "problem" of the JSA was incredibly simple, but, alas, one that modern writers and editors seem disinclined to use.

If having the JSA tied to WW2 demands explanations of why they are not all old or dead "now," STOP DOING STORIES SET IN THE PRESENT. Make the JSA character who appear only in the Past, via flashback or time travel. As I have often pointed out, I did nearly six years on FANTASTIC FOUR and not so much as ONCE did I mention Reed and Ben having served in WW2. And somehow the entire Marvel Universe did not fall into a black hole because of this "lack."

THIS is where "continuity" becomes a bad thing -- when writers, editors and fans cannot let go. When, a la Roy, EVERYTHING must have a place in "continuity." And it's sad, because simply not MENTIONING something is not the same as contradicting it, tho some seem convinced that it is.

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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 20 June 2014 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 10  

I completely agree.

As a reader I like the contrast of an older/younger pairing like The Batman and Wildcat, but not at the expense of Ted Grant having invented his own "Infinity Formula" or some such explanation.

No one needs to refer to Bond has having been involved in the closing years on WWII and blossoming in the cold war era. The same tensions that gave rise to James Bond as a character in 1954 exist today.

I wonder whether Nazi iconography casts such a long shadow that the JSA will forever be associated to that era. In my mind, the JSA is more closely related to post-depression and the American rise as an industrial superpower.

Would the comicbook world spin on its head if the JSA's backdrop were recast as the Vietnam war?




Edited by Jesus Garcia on 20 June 2014 at 8:12am
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 20 June 2014 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 11  

Can anyone nail down when and where the term "Marvel Universe" first appeared in print? I don't believe the term existed while Stan Lee was running the show. I'd guess either Roy Thomas or Jim Shooter came up with it...perhaps as an attempt to 'explain' that the Superman and Spider-man tabloids were 'exceptions' to a 'rule' that had never previously existed?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 June 2014 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 12  

Would the comicbook world spin on its head if the JSA's backdrop were recast as the Vietnam war?

••

But why DO that? The JSA belong to a particular ERA, not a particular number of years in the Past. When Earth 2 first appeared (sort of), in "The Flash of Two Worlds," Jay Garrick had retired as the Flash in 1949, the same year his book was canceled. At the time of publication of the new story, that was about ten years ago.

It is important that the date of Jay's retirement remain 1949, NOT that it remain eternally 10 years ago.

(And, of course, by invoking Vietnam, you commit the OTHER sin, casting this all upon a sliding scale. "Well, if it was ten years in 'The Flash of Two Worlds,' now it must be (twenty, thirty, forty . . .)."

There is no good REASON to have the JSA operating in present day, in any case. That's redundant. We have the JLA now. Leave the Justice Society to deal with the menaces of its own time, in its own time. Will there be snobs and ageists who won't buy the book/stories because they are set in the Past? Yer darn tooting' there will! And will this mayhap cause the series to be canceled, the characters to disappear? Quite possibly.

And, you know what? LET THEM! Everything has it's time in the sun. If the JSA's was WW2 and maybe the early Sixties, then fine. No reason to force the issue by setting their origins in Vietnam, or Desert Storm, or whatever war was the "correct" amount of years ago.

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