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BRIAN ASKEY
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Posted: 17 June 2014 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 1  

Deadman also turns up in the Forever People #9 and 10.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 17 June 2014 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 2  

True, Brian, but that had more to do with Carmine Infantino's apparent infatuation with the character and insistence that he be included. Kirby did as Carmine asked, but I didn't get the feeling that it was what he wanted. You're right that it does further tie the events of the New Gods into Earth-1's storylines.

Jesus, I agree completely that often a title or concept works far better on its own terms, rather than having to compromise and incorporate the ground rules of a hundred other, dis-similar concepts as well. I enjoyed team-up books tremendously as a kid, but even with those, I took those titles on their own merits and preferred not to play the "Implication Game" and insist that because Batman met Supergirl in this book, and Supergirl met Prez in another, that somehow Prez was in office in Batman's world. 

I believe that Michael Fleischer's intent was to effectively "reboot" the Spectre with a brand-new, Earth-1 version unrelated to his earlier stories. Since such things were frowned upon back in the day, a lot of effort was made on the fan level, and eventually the editorial one, to explain how there might be two Jim Corrigans, one the Earth-1 counterpart of the original, there was still only one Spectre, travelling between the Earths to inhabit the new guy. I think that's how that one shook out. I should pull out my Showcase Presents and look into it, however...

Brave and Bold wasn't the only place that the Earth-1 Wildcat appeared, by the way. He also teamed up with the Creeper in an issue of Super-Team Family, making it even more likely that there was such a guy, despite his not having been mentioned "officially" in any JLA/JSA crossover. Of course, the answer DC more or less went with was to consign that story as well to the letter column invented world of "Earth-B," where everything they can't fit takes place. 

"Earth-B," by the way, didn't work either since Bob Haney's Super Sons weren't mentioned in any of the Brave and Bold stories said to take place there. Eventually a different explanation was invented for that series; they were simply a computer-generated fantasy Superman & Batman sometimes ran in the Fortress on days when they hoped they actually could settle down, marry, and have families. Again, the insistence that everything MUST match never played well with me. You don't like the Super-Sons? Don't mention them. Somehow the world will get along.

That being said, the issue that debunked them (World's Finest #263) is among my favorites from that era. The possibility of being a father meant a lot to Batman.

Darren, you bring up a good point citing Zatanna as an even earlier example of Golden Age characters on Earth-1. She debuted, however, Hawkman #4 in 1964. "Flash of Two Worlds" was published in late 1961.
Had Fox & Schwartz wanted to consign every possible mention of the Golden Age to Earth-2, they certainly already had the tools at hand to do so.

And as you say, comics were seen as a five-year fling to be enjoyed by children. The idea that all of this would be scrutinized to the extent that it has been and continues to be would not have brought a smile to anyone's face in those days, I think. Things overall were kept reasonably consistent. Forcing "retroactive continuity" into everything to jam it all into one, supposedly seamless flowing narrative would have been thought of as ludicrous. And they'd have been right.


Edited by Brian Hague on 17 June 2014 at 7:09pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 17 June 2014 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | 3  

I really hated that story that "explained" the Super-Sons and removed them from continuity.  Unnecessary and annoying, and likely motivated by Levitz's desire to have a big unified Marvel-style continuity across the line.  To add insult to injury, they did the story just a few months after Haney had been removed from his longtime assignment on World's Finest and demoted to writing only non-superhero books.  As Brian said, all they needed to do was not mention them again, but this was the era of over-explaining, when we learned that Superman was using super-hypnosis on everyone in the world so they would see Clark Kent differently than they saw him.  I guess I should be thankful they never did a story explaining Batman's brother. 
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 17 June 2014 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 4  

While it would have been nice for Kirby's Fourth World material to be self-contained, I think that the characters that he, and also Ditko, brought into the DC Universe really injected new life into the company.

DARKSEID
THE NEW GODS
MR. MIRACLE
MORGAN EDGE (who Kirby did create and then he went on to become a BIG part of all the SUPERMAN comics I read as a kid)
KAMANDI (a great concept for revival)
OMAC (I'd still like to see brought back properly)
THE DEMON
and even some cool short runs like
KOBRA
MANHUNTER (which Englehart and others did a lot with later)
ATLAS
THE SANDMAN (a great version I'd like to see in a series one day)
Not to mention older characters like
THE GUARDIAN

And then from Ditko--

THE CREEPER
HAWK & DOVE
SHADE THE CHANGING MAN
and then after some legal dealing
BLUE BEETLE
CAPT. ATOM

--these are some AMAZING concepts! And because of the JIMMY OLSEN connection, they've flirted with making Darkseid an arch-villain for Superman (seen to great effect in JB's issues and even on TV's SMALLVILLE).

Gee, you could do a separate COMPANY just on Kirby and Ditko's DC creations! But at the very least, they made the DC Universe a richer place.
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 12:37am | IP Logged | 5  

While it was Paul Levitz who established that the JSA had in fact formed in the early days of World War II, it was Roy Thomas who felt the need to 'explain' why the characters, and their various 'significant others', aged much more slowly than everyone else(in a story from ALL-STAR SQUADRON ANNUAL # 3).
Incidentally, RT mentioned in an ALL-STAR SQUDRON lettercol that he had an 'explanation' for how Air Wave 'switched' to Earth-1, after appearing in the title, but by that time, it was post-CRISIS, so whatever he planned no longer 'mattered'. He'd already established that a number of the Qualiity Comics heroes in the Freedom Fighters had come from Earth-2, and moved to Earth-X(along with the Blackhawks and Plastic Man, both contradicting and affirming what Len Wein had said when intoduced the Freedom Fighters in JUSTICE LEAGUE in 1973), and had already retconned Commander Steel as an Earth-2 native, writing him out by sending him to Earth-1 in time to star in his short-lived 1978 series.
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 2:08am | IP Logged | 6  

I'm a huge All-Star Squadron fan (and the golden age heroes in general) but Roy Thomas monster trucked over a lot of previous DC stuff to make it work (I am a big fan of Thomas' work btw).  While I thought including Steel in that series was a good idea, he went over the top with the Quality heroes and that arc felt very forced.  Especially read alongside JLA 107-108, where the stories don't really match up and its fairly obvious from the dialogue that the JSA have never met any of the Earth X characters previously. 

 

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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 7  

The All-Star Squadron was like the opposite of the Avengers: Everybody joined, but almost nobody left! By # 32 in 1984, Thomas had finally realized his goal of having every 'available' Golden Age hero join the team(There would still be no Golden-Age Aquaman until very late in the run, Captain Triumph was off-limits to DC for legal reasons, and the absences of a few others had at least been explained away).

The drawbacks of the series were Thomas' M*A*S*H-like shoehorning of 5 years' worth of 'real time' action into about 6 months of 'comic time'(the series started in December of '41, and, with all the CRISIS tie-ins, it only got as far as the summer of 1942 by the end of the run); and the inclusion of a small 'core' of heroes (many of the same ones who were in the book from the start) while excluding so many others who might have been given an issue or two in the spotlight. He seemed to want everyone to 'be there', but he really played favorites, and reduced most of those 'forgotten heroes' to cameos when they did appear. Sort of like a history teacher who'd rather focus on one or two 'huge' topics, while glossing over everything between wars.
 RT did include the 'original' Air Wave, and Sargon the Sorcerer, in one of the last issues, but by 1986, Thomas was also doing the SECRET ORIGINS title, and he decided to recount some of the group's origins in the last few issues of their own title. 
Then, Thomas decided to try and emulate the Teen Titans by creating YOUNG ALL-STARS...and the post-CRISIS 'Golden Age' went to hell.


Edited by Brian O'Neill on 18 June 2014 at 9:19am
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 8  

I really wanted to like All Star Squadron, but it really seems like Roy Thomas fell victim to the "kid in a candy store" syndrome as far as wanting to use all his favorite characters rather than have a workable cast.  Many of the issues were just overwhelmed with the crowds of heroes.  And when he did whittle it down to a smaller group, it was an arbitrarily-assembled team of Hawkman with a bunch of B and C-listers that I guess were his favorites but I had little interest in.  I mean, there's a reason Robotman and Liberty Belle were not big hits in their time.  I always found myself wishing he would have just done a straight JSA series featuring the best-known characters, and had occasional guest spots by minor characters, more like he'd done in Invaders.

Regarding unnecessary explanation/retcons, my least-favorite of that era has to be the extremely awkward idea that the Black Canary in the JLA is actually the daughter of the original Black Canary, with her mother's memories implanted in her.  That was a Roy Thomas idea, wasn't it? 
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 9  

Jason, I believe the Black Canary 'origin' was based on  an idea by Marv Wolfman, Roy Thomas  just scripted the JLA issue in which the story appeared, and yes it was a terrible solution. 

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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 10  

The original Robotman was a whimsical character who shouldn't have been in the ASQ in the first place.

The Black Canary "origin" practically justified CRISIS all by itself. If there was ever a story that needed retconning away...!!

(I'm convinced that the real reason that CRISIS was written was because DC's writers couldn't keep track of who lived on which Earth, not the readers!)
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 11  

Hear, hear. I agree with that assessment completely, Jason. I also very much appreciate your pointing out that Jimmy Thompson's Robotman was a wonderfully light-hearted strip with a charm all it's own, one that makes later works done with the character as some sort of sociopath or monster utterly ruinous. 

Earlier in this thread, Eric pointed out that the contributions of Kirby and Ditko make the DCU a richer place. That much is true, but did becoming threads in the larger DC tapestry do those Kirby & Ditko characters & stories any favors? Does it help our appreciation of Ditko's Stalker or Kirby's Atlas to know that bored, desperately non-creative Superman writers would turn them into psycho mass-murderers? Is Ditko's Shade any better for having been turned inside out for Peter Milligan's psychedelia? Is Darkseid himself improved by Grant Morrison's dragging him through the sewer or Keith Giffen putting him in a McDonald's hat to hand Ambush Bug a Happy Meal?

The exchange seems entirely one way to my eyes.

Thomas' All-Star Squadron started off as a favorite title, but quickly went downhill in my estimation, as all of the characters essentially spoke with the same voice, concerned themselves with all the same petty details, and employed the same mode of phrasing, over and over and over...

Reading the title became a genuine chore at times. See also: Chris Claremont.

As for Thomas' persnickety penchant for having everything his own way in regards to everyone, simply everyone originating on Earth-2, it was a lot like watching some other fanboy play a video game and never hand the controller over to another player. "Storylines" like the idea that all the heroes on Earth-X were really emigrants from Earth-2 were tedious in the extreme. Not to mention completely pointless. Eventually, I just had to stop reading.


Edited by Brian Hague on 18 June 2014 at 6:21pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 18 June 2014 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 12  

I'm generally a pretty big Roy Thomas fan, and I do not mind a certain level of explanation and continuity-linking of the sort he likes to do.  It just seemed like in All-Star Squadron he went way overboard with that stuff, to the point that it got in the way of telling stories.  Perhaps it was just a case of liking those particular characters too much, since they were his childhood favorites and he was finally getting a chance to handle them after 15 years in the business.  It just seemed like his focus was all about "fixing" the continuity and making sure everybody appeared, rather than just telling stories.  On the whole, the book turned out to be one of my least-favorite things he's done.
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