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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 5:45am | IP Logged | 1
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After seeing the JOHN CARTER movie I read some of the books, and as I went along, I found myself more than once thinking Okay, I can see why they changed this,,,In fact, the changes in CARTER very much sprang from the old Hollywood mantra that a book is not a movie -- only this time, it wasn't an excuse for Mr. Director to force his "vision" into the work. Take the artifact that gets Carter to Mars. In the book, he basically wishes/dreams/astral projects himself with (at least in the ones I read) no explanation of how he's doing it. Circa 1912, that might have played well with an audience that thought "A Princess of Mars" was a really HOT title (and I am NOT being sarcastic), but there have been a LOT of science fiction and fantasy movies since then. What was new and amazing in the books has been ripped off so many times that alterations need to be made just so the CARTER movie won't seem like it is, itself, ripping off, say, STAR WARS. And the more "sophisticated" audience needs a physical maguffin to focus upon. So we get an amulet instead of a wish/dream, and Carter has something to DO in the movie with which the audience can actually connect. Also, it provides a nice underline for audience members who are too dumb to get it any other way: Carter throws away his amulet when he adopts Mars as his home. That's just one example, but there are others, and none of them fall into the categories to be found in so many Hollywood (as a mindset, not a geographic location) movies. Like the excesses of LORD OF THE RINGS, for instance, where everything from the time frame to the characters' motivations are changed. (Walt Simonson, a huge LotR fan, actually called me after he saw the second movie. He wanted me to check his thinking on the fact that changes Peter Jackson made actually made it impossible to get to the third book. He was right. The progression into "The Return of the King" happens arbitrarily in the movies, not because of any internal logic.) Many changes that Hollywood makes are just out of laziness. It's easier to do it one way, rather than another. Race-swapping falls into this category. Rather than spending some time and effort on creating new Black characters -- you know, actually respecting the history and heritage of the Black actors who will play them -- just get out the shoe polish and go all Al Jolson on an existing character. It was racist when Jolson did it.* It's still racist. Only now, that racism has been repackaged in a way that makes some people think something POSITIVE is happening. It isn't. ____________ * From time to time I have wondered how Jolson, who was born Asa Yoelson, would have reacted to a song-and-dance man who sported a huge beaked nose and a yarmulke. Would that horrifying cliché have been as "okay" as his own blackface routines?
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12703
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 5:54am | IP Logged | 2
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Doug asked, "Could Luke Cage only be a black man?"
My question would be: is Luke Cage, a black man born and raised in Bed-Stuy, essentially the same character as Lucy Cage, a black woman born in Africa but adopted as an infant by a Hollywood power-couple and raised in Beverly Hills?
Race/color etc. are cultural markers that matter, or at least should. We should go more than skin deep when choosing how to depict and, much more important, create characters. It's the latter that's lacking when it comes to black superheroes... and plenty of others too. Race-swapping is merely palliative of the problem.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 6:10am | IP Logged | 3
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My question would be: is Luke Cage, a black man born and raised in Bed-Stuy, essentially the same character as Lucy Cage, a black woman born in Africa but adopted as an infant by a Hollywood power-couple and raised in Beverly Hills?•• Sometimes it doesn't even take race or gender swapping to create such a schism. Consider Storm, as we met her in GIANT-SIZED X-MEN 1: Mysterious, ancient, unworldly. . . but within a very short time she was born in Harlem and grew up with the first part of Modesty Blaise's origin. A completely different character (and tied to a specific bit of world history, the Suez crisis, that makes her my age!!). Sub-Note: that guy Cockrum could sure push a pencil, huh?
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 4
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I also get annoyed when I see "we cast the best person for the role." Dustin Hoffman might be a better actor than Chris Reeve. Ruby Dee might be a better actress than Lynda Carter, but Reeve and Carter were so well cast as Superman and Wonder Woman primarily because of their physical appearances. Acting has always been about the right "look."
Nolan miscast Ra's al Ghul, Talia, and Bane (though Hardy might have passed as someone of Bane's actual heritage but they didn't even try).
He also miscast Lucius Fox, who was only a few years older than Bruce, not another father figure.
And Burton completely miscast Bruce Wayne.
These are all the little dominos that fall that result in accepting a non- blonde as Susan Storm -- come on, Jessica Alba didn't even come close and wasn't even that popular at the time. And January Jones was out there.
And, alas, Hugh Jackman,
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 5
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Michael: A good story is a good story, and a bad one bad.
Beyond that tautology, though, what is the argument that, just for example, Batman (already established) as a WASP-American/male is essentially the same character as Batwoman, an African-American/female?
Does this not even have to be about race -- e.g., is Superman still Superman if he's not a "male" Kryptonian but a female Australian Aborigine being viewed as an "alien" in terms of race and gender by male Anglo-Aussies? That indeed could be a good story that tells us quite a bit about race and gender, but what's the argument that that's a "faithful adaption," to use JB's thread title?
I'm not really making such an argument. Rather, I'm making an argument that when evaluating any adaptation, "faithfulness" is only one element to be considered, and indeed perhaps not even the most important one.
Over the course of our civilization, stories have been told and retold, often changing substantially in the retelling. For example, the character of Lancelot, with the accompanying adulterous love triangle, only entered the Arthurian legends with the Romances of Chrétien de Troyes in the 12th century. And Shakespeare adapted King Lear from stories in Holinshed's Chronicles about a monarch named Leir who successfully regained his kingdom from his ungrateful daughters after foolishly willing it to them.
If one were to insist on faithfulness at the expense of all of other virtues, these were terrible adaptations. The original Arthur was not a melancholy cuckold. The original Leir was not a pathetic madman who died in ignominy. Yet I think it would be absurd to fail to recognize how much more deeply resonant the stories became as a result.
Granted, it's a bit of a stretch to imagine that Fox will be giving us the cultural equivalent of "King Lear" by making Johnny Storm a black guy. As folks have noted, it seems more likely that such swaps are crass cash grabs than they are genuine artistic choices. But it remains possible that they might shed new light on the stories they adapt. If nothing else, as opposed as I initially was to the casting choice, I have come to enjoy Jackson's version of Nick Fury a great deal.
As you say, "A good story is a good story, and a bad one bad." I care more about that than I do about faithfulness. I think many people would agree with that, and Oliver's barb, snarky as it was, reflects some of the same attitude.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
Nolan miscast Ra's al Ghul, Talia, and Bane (though Hardy might have passed as someone of Bane's actual heritage but they didn't even try). |
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I'd have to disagree. If I was casting Ra's based on his Comic book appearance, I'd go with David Warner or Robert O'Reilly. Though, like the Comic Book Ra's, neither looks like the "Arabic by way of China" guy Ra's is supposed to be. Neeson's okay playing a middle aged character with a certain gravitas.
Similarly, Talia is usually drawn as a "white woman" who likes Asian inspired clothing and jumpsuits, so Marion Cotillard isn't that far off.
Bane's ancestry is British, ( his father was a Brit named Edmund Dorrance aka King Snake). As is Tom Hardy's.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6414
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 7
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Doug: I'm making an argument that when evaluating any adaptation, "faithfulness" is only one element to be considered, and indeed perhaps not even the most important one.
**
Important to whom? What's the context? There's a big difference between adding varied interpretations to a piece that's been done a million times and swapping out the race of a character that's never been on-screen faithfully. Being snarky about that, whatever the thinking, is a way of saying "the fictional characters we're talking about are not worthy of faithful recognition."
Are you arguing FOR "race swapping" as it's been described by this thread? Is putting a minority-race face upon a white character better than creating a new character designed with the appropriate background for his/her race?
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Doug Campbell Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008 Location: United States Posts: 367
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 8
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Mark: Important to whom? What's the context? There's a big difference between adding varied interpretations to a piece that's been done a million times and swapping out the race of a character that's never been on-screen faithfully.
Well, not to be overly tendentious, but the FF have been continually in publication for over 50 years in the comics, and have been featured in several movies, a bunch of cartoons, video games, and who knows what else. In all of these hundreds of portrayals, Johnny Storm has been a young white male. That rates as having been "done" about as much as the Arthur or Lear stories.
We also perhaps aren't paying due attention to the fact that the Johnny Storm character is himself a reimagining of an earlier Human Torch, and is perhaps more different from the Jim Hammond android police officer than a young, black Human Torch might be from the 1960s version. Why is that okay for Lee and Kirby but not for the new film?
Mark: Are you arguing FOR "race swapping" as it's been described by this thread? Is putting a minority-race face upon a white character better than creating a new character designed with the appropriate background for his/her race?
Well, let's put it this way: I not always AGAINST race swapping for characters depending on the context. I think it has the possibility to be interesting and can potentially show fascinating facets of pre-existing characters and stories. Or it can be crap. It all depends. But by all means, lets see lots and lots of new characters and new stories even as we reexamine old ones.
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 9
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With the FF, I find changing the ages of Reed, Ben and Sue more bothersome than changing Johnny's race.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133279
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 10
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...Though, like the Comic Book Ra's, neither looks like the "Arabic by way of China" guy Ra's is supposed to be.••• Ra's is supposed to be of indeterminate race/ethnicity, according to Neal Adams.
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4505
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 11
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Comic books are visual and therefore keeping the characters on model or not should be justified. Hopefully the justification has merit. Comic books also have a much greater body of reference material than a play. The text of a play usually has little or no design specification for the characters beyond sex. If Shakespeare had drawn pictures of an ideal Romeo and written over 100 plays about him we might be less tolerant about gender bending or race swapping the role. We certainly don't see these types of changes with the stock characters of Commedia dell'arte or Japanese Noh Theater. One can only hope some unique insight will be discovered with a black Johnny Storm, but I'm doubtful.
I'm not against race swapping a character or gender bending, but does the change have merit?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 13 June 2014 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
Ra's is supposed to be of indeterminate race/ethnicity, according to Neal Adams. |
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I've heard this before, but never seen it "on the page".
"Arabic by way of China" is from Birth of the Demon by Denny O'Neil.
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