| Author |
|
Marin Balabanov
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2005
Location: Austria
Posts: 195
|
| Posted: 12 August 2014 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
"Based on the number of imitators I have seen over the years, I'd place my own early work very much in this category. Certainly better than Liefeld's work, but those X-MEN issues were full of so many basic mistakes -- the mistakes EVERYBODY makes -- that they served asencouragement, even on a subliminal level, for those who dreamed of a career in comics."
***
JB, I guess you outgrew these early mistakes quite quickly and honed your craft. Rob Liefeld has been in the business for more than twenty years. It appears that some of his more recent work has new and different shortcomings compared to his older work.
(Please let me say, that I enjoy his "artwork" in a certain way, that I cannot quite put my finger on, even though I am perfectly aware that it is bad on an objective level.)
PS: Has this thread drifted a bit, or is Rob Liefeld cast as the Human Torch? :-)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
|
| Posted: 12 August 2014 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
TED: When I see a black Perry White, I
shake my head and try not to think about it, but if I do,
John Byrne is right. It's blackface, and a poor excuse
for not creating a new character and/or REPLACING an old,
white character with a new, black one. Just give the
Planet a new black editor-in-chief and reference Perry
one time (if you want) as his predecessor and then forget
about him.
SER: I agree. I get that Hollywood -- and even the comics
themselves -- probably want to try and reflect the racial
and gender diversity of the modern day. What was true in
the 1940s is not the case now. So, introduce new
characters and retire old ones, as appropriate. But a
black Perry White or a "Jenny" Olsen feels like trying to
eat your cake and have it, as well -- to latch onto
decades of name recognition while changing the character
entirely.
What bugs me is when Hollywood and fans make the claim
that "race-swapping" is just a result of hiring the
"best" person for the role. That is absurd. You're not
going to cast Robert DeNiro as Johnny Storm so why is one
aspect of his appearance truer to who the character is
(age) than another (race)?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
|
| Posted: 12 August 2014 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Based on the number of imitators I have seen over the years, I'd place my own early work very much in this category. Certainly better than Liefeld's work, but those X-MEN issues were full of so many basic mistakes -- the mistakes EVERYBODY makes -- that they served as encouragement, even on a subliminal level, for those who dreamed of a career in comics.
****
Perhaps I have a faulty memory, but I can't think of too many comics artists over the past thirty years whose work has reminded me of JB's. Dale Keown's work on THE INCREDIBLE HULK did, but who else?
(Watch everyone here provide a list of artists whose work I barely know, if at all...)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14854
|
| Posted: 12 August 2014 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
Paul Pelletier
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133280
|
| Posted: 12 August 2014 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
I didn't say published artists. I'm talking about people asking me for portfolio reviews.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Jason Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
|
| Posted: 12 August 2014 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
...Oh. Never mind.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15941
|
| Posted: 13 August 2014 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
so why is one aspect of his appearance truer to who the character is
(age) than another (race)?--------------------------------- Race is only skin deep. Age is not; it can fundamentally affect how you behave, how you think, your judgement, what you are capable of and what you are not capable of (in a physical sense).
Not saying you are wrong about race swapping, but I think age counts for more than race in terms of retaining the core of who a fictional character is.
Edited to clarify some of these points...
Edited by Peter Martin on 13 August 2014 at 1:53pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14854
|
| Posted: 13 August 2014 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Race is only skin deep.
------
People aren't defined by their race. But to think it's purely cosmetic and has no influence on their identity is dangerously ignorant. The idea that a black man at the very least has to be conscious that he might have to conduct himself differently with law enforcement than a white man would have to has an affect on his identity. The idea that an Asian woman can still be perceived as a "foreigner" in a country that she was born and raised in has an affect on her identity. If race were just cosmetic, you could get plastic surgery to look like a different race in the same way you could get a boob job, and it wouldn't be seen as a rejection of your identity and your family. How many people do you think would feel that way?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15941
|
| Posted: 13 August 2014 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Yes, all valid points.
To defend what I wrote, I would say I was clearly discussing the specific contention that no aspect of a character's appearance can be considered 'truer' than another.
I'd say that some aspects of appearance do count for more,in the world of fictional adaptation. I'd rank hair colour as more important than eye colour. I'd rank race as more important than hair colour. I'd rank age as more fundamental than race - because the impact of age is a universal effect and the impact of race is specific from society to society.
If we adapt Dark Knight Returns and we make Batman black, we are not being true to the character in general. If we make him in his prime, I say we are delivering a fundamental blow to how the character operates in that story.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133280
|
| Posted: 13 August 2014 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
The use of the word "character" is important. These characters are fictional. But contrary to the belief of some, that should not mean we can do anything we like with them. Author's intent is at issue, at least.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14854
|
| Posted: 13 August 2014 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
I'd rank age as more fundamental than race - because the impact of age is a universal effect and the impact of race is specific from society to society.
----
Unless you are talking about the difference between someone who is elderly and someone who is middle-aged and someone who is a kid, the impact of age is widely variable. A bachelorette in her 40s who stays in shape and keeps up with current trends might still relate more to a single 20-something than her friends with kids and mortgages and tuition payments. It's more about life experiences, and while age makes certain life experiences more likely, they aren't perfectly correlated with specific ages.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2364
|
| Posted: 16 August 2014 at 1:40am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
When you get down to it, it's not about design or an actor's interpretation, it's more about the icons and institutions we lose because some suits or hacks out there think they're more talented than the geniuses who came before them and want (in a patronizing and insincere way) to make money off of us.
Take the NEW 52 version of GREEN ARROW, for example. It's not a bad design by itself, but when I think that we may never see the Neal Adams-designed, bearded, smiling, liberal, "I hate injustice and I really hate drugs," modern Robin Hood who dearly loved Dinah (the fishnetted BLACK CANARY), was best friends with the straight-laced Hal (the noble space cop GREEN LANTERN), and had a "I was disappointed but now I'm very proud" relationship with Roy (who fought his way back from addiction SPEEDY), etc. version, it makes me sad.
(You can say that Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams did the same thing to the Jack Kirby version that surely the previous generation loved, but this was STILL the same character--he had just gone through life-changing events! And the old version was still accessible in flashbacks--NOT wiped out of existence and made never-was!)
When you cast Michael B. Jordan--or, yes, even Chris Evans!--as the Human Torch, that means we NEVER get to see the 16-year-old blond kid on the big screen--the character at his purest, the way his two creators meant for him to be.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Topic Closed)
