| Author |
|
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12703
|
| Posted: 16 June 2014 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
I wonder to what extent the opposite rule applies in Hollywood.
If not for race-swapping, how many non-white characters, major, minor, ancillary, even scene-filling, does Hollywood create in superhero adaptations?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Adam Benford
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: 17 June 2014 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
I agree with all of the main points here, where film is concerned. But isn't theatre different?
A film is trying to accurately represent what is happening, to the maximum extent that budget will allow. Theatre on the other hand has a convention of the audience having to suspend their disbelief. Sets are often minimalist, and sometimes so are costumes.
So while a black man can't play Indiana Jones in a film, perhaps he can play Hamlet. He is just playing a white man, even though he hasn't changed his appearance.
By the same token, I would go and watch Dame Helen Mirren play King Lear in the theatre, but not in a film.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6415
|
| Posted: 17 June 2014 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Michael: If not for race-swapping, how many non-white characters, major, minor, ancillary, even scene-filling, does Hollywood create in superhero adaptations?
**
I'm struggling to think of one. Richard Pryor's scientist in Superman III?
In the case of Deathlok on SHIELD, it appeared they'd created a new black character, but that actually turned out to be misdirection.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
|
| Posted: 17 June 2014 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
I agree with all of the main points here, where film is concerned. But
isn't theatre different?
=====
Depends, I guess. To my knowledge, It wasn't until the film production
that a black man (Lawrence Fishburne) played Othello, which is
criminal. But as I read today, Having a black manly Othello, a Moor,
makes perfect sense. If a black man plays Cassio, it takes a lot of
impact out of the story.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Jeffrey Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1161
|
| Posted: 17 June 2014 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
Uhm, i saw James Earl Jones play Othello a looooong time before Fishburne came along.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
|
| Posted: 17 June 2014 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Uhm, i saw James Earl Jones play Othello a looooong time before
Fishburne came along.
=====
That's why I prefaced my comment with, "To my knowledge" I haven't
seen that version. I've only seen three versions of the story.
-The Orson Welles version, which is well acted but I had a problem
with it for the same reason I have a problem with Jordan playing the
Johnny Storm.
-The Branagh/Fishburne film.
-And the one my University put on back in '92 which starred a very
talented black man who's name escapes me.
As to Jones playing the part, it makes me glad he did. I hope I can
find it. He'd probably be the best of anyone I've seen to date. Sounds
like excellent casting for the lead.
Still, as far as a black man playing Cassio, it doesn't really change my
point.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15939
|
| Posted: 18 June 2014 at 6:53am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
To clarify, the Fishburne/Branagh Othello when it came out was heralded as being the first time a black man had played the role in a film. This wasn't quite true anyway, but it was the first major film release in which this had happened. He was certainly not the first black man to play the role in any medium, with many stage versions, TV versions and some low budget film versions preceding Fishburne (Willard White as Othello against McKellen's Iago in Trevor Nunn's 1990 BBC adaptation is a favourite screen version of mine).
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133279
|
| Posted: 18 June 2014 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Uhm, i saw James Earl Jones play Othello a looooong time before Fishburne came along.•• Uhm, it's really annoying and condescending when people begin their posts with "uhm..."
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133279
|
| Posted: 18 June 2014 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
A film is trying to accurately represent what is happening, to the maximum extent that budget will allow. Theatre on the other hand has a convention of the audience having to suspend their disbelief. Sets are often minimalist, and sometimes so are costumes. •• Possibly the first time I was really aware of race-swapping was when I saw a short news item about a production of "The Flying Dutchman" that had cast a Black singer in the lead. Various cast and crew members made the point that it wasn't about race, it was about VOICE. Uhhhhhh...........? (The silliest example of race swapping, perhaps of all, I saw a few years back when I went to a production of "Peter Pan" at a big, professional playhouse in New Jersey. The director, a friend of a friend, had recast ALL the Indians as White, and given them elaborate, non-Indian flower costumes, taking his cue from Princess Tiger Lily. The move was entirely motivated by Political Correctness. They didn't want local tribes picketing the theater. (Still, I asked the director why he'd done it, and he said he felt it better suited the fantasy elements of the play if the "Indians" were actually stylized representations of various kinds of flowers. "Sure," I said. "'Cuz Victorian children were always playing Cowboys and Stylized Representations of Various Kinds of Flowers.")
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35927
|
| Posted: 18 June 2014 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Mark Haslett wrote:
| In the case of Deathlok on SHIELD, it appeared they'd created a new black character, but that actually turned out to be misdirection. |
|
|
To be fair AoS was following the print side of Marvel. When they rebooted/revived the character in the 90s he was a black man. This is just to point out that in this specific case with regard to casting that there was precedent for a character most only know from the reboot and not the 70s original.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6415
|
| Posted: 18 June 2014 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Matt: When they rebooted/revived the character in the 90s he was a black man. This is just to point out that in this specific case with regard to casting that there was precedent for a character most only know from the reboot and not the 70s original.
**
I didn't know that. I guess that's slightly different than the case of Nick Fury-- but that's pretty slightly!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3093
|
| Posted: 18 June 2014 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Regarding The flying dutchman, I think the color blind ship has sailed on opera, JB. Literally every opera I've ever attended has cast minorities in European roles.
There's good reason for that. The overwhelming majority of operas performed are classical, written by Europeans, set in Europe, with European characters. According to Opera America, the most frequently produced operas in the 2010-2011 season were: Puccini's La bohème, Mozart's Le nozze di Figaro, Puccini's Madame Butterfly, Mozart's The Magic Flute, Donizetti's The Daughter of the Regiment, Puccini's Tosca, Verdi's La traviata, Puccini's Turandot, Bizet's Carmen and Donizetti's Lucia di Lammermoor. The most frequently produced North American operas in the 2010-2011 season were: Gershwin's Porgy and Bess, Menotti's The Consul, Bernstein's Candide, Adamo's Little Women and Barber's Vanessa. Out of those, only Little Women was composed within the past 50 years, and only Porgy and Bess was written specifically for African American performers playing African American roles.
There are more than 1200 opera productions in North America every year. 359 new operas have debuted since 2000 (more than a third of the 825 operas composed since 1900), which is less than 3% of total productions. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect the majority underperformed in ticket sales. Audiences have made it clear they want the classics. There's not a market for new work, let alone new work dedicated to minority roles.
By ruling out color blind opera casting, we'd relegate some of the form's best talent to a Sartre-like hell of endless performances of Porgy and Bess. Considering opera is a representational art form anyway, that would be a waste.
Personally, I thought Seattle Opera overstepped more when they portrayed the dragon Fafner as a fork lift in their Ring cycle.
The first singer to play Wagner's Dutchman wasn't even Dutch, by the way. Johann Michael Wächter was Austrian.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
| |
|
|
Topic Closed)
