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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 4:49am | IP Logged | 1
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Perhaps the new African American identity for the Human Torch will indeed prove to have been an arbitrary choice, but it cannot be automatically dismissed as such, <ahem> , arbitrarily. We must wait and see.
***
But this falls back on, again, that same tautology you earlier asserted: a good story is a good story, and a bad one bad. How does that address the question of un-faithful adaptations due to race-swapping (not color-blind casting)?
In particular, as many have argued here, the evidence of extant films thus far shows that race-swapping in comicbook movies:
1.does not probe anything in regard to those character-changes that could be interesting, challenging, enlightening, and so it is instead a twisted kind of modern-blackface, even unintentionally, even without explicit racist impetus;
2. does not lead to the creation of new, exciting, vibrant, important, even (and how sad this is to say in 2014!) ground-breaking black characters;
and thus,
3. to quote Koroush's succinct summation: "It just boils down to a ham-fisted cash grab by the producers. More diversity = more dollars, pure and simple."
What do you think, Doug? What facts argue that these points are mistaken?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 4:56am | IP Logged | 2
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What do you think, Doug? What facts argue that these points are mistaken?•• "Doug" has left the building.
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Kip Lewis
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 5:30am | IP Logged | 3
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Making an adaptation that isn't faithful (no matter how
good it is) cannot do that. It's all new. There's no
emotional attachment to to my past to be found because
none of that was there
.........
I think that this is probably the answer to the whole
thing. The target audience to the FF movie or Bourne
Identity is not the people with an emotional attachment
to the story. These movies are made primarily for an
audience that either had no attachment or have a faded
attachment. There are simply not enough fans of the
source to make it for them. If every comic book fan or
Robert Lunden fan refused to see the movie it probably
wouldn't make a difference. Compare that to movies like
Twilight where they know they are making these movies for
a huge fan base that cares. If they turn off that fan
base, the movie would crash. And like someone said.
It is all about the money.
Edited by Kip Lewis on 15 June 2014 at 6:27am
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Koroush Ghazi
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 4
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It's true that for some properties, the original fan base may be quite small. But it should be noted that a faithful adaptation can create new fans for a particular property in all of its forms. That sort of "cross pollination" can generate more money for everyone involved with the property in the long term.
But Hollywood doesn't have any interest in adding to the edifice of history. It seems to be obsessed with tearing down anything perceived as being old, then building a flimsy, flashy structure on its rubble, and repeating the process until the cash dries up.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 5
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Kip Lewis wrote:
The target audience to the FF movie or Bourne
Identity is not the people with an emotional attachment
to the story. These movies are made primarily for an
audience that either had no attachment or have a faded
attachment. There are simply not enough fans of the
source to make it for them. |
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Two things. First off your explanation is no excuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's got to be a reason that the FF have been popular with a wide albeit small audience (compared to box office numbers) for over half a century. It's not just the names and the powers. Second, I don't think anyone here is advocating making superhero movies only for the fans. That would get really insular very fast. But there is a middle ground, one that doesn't simply turn some of the films into "in name only" productions. As Koroush rightly mentions, you can make a film that is true to the fundamentals of the characters while building an audience. That's not pandering to the fanbase and it's not changing everything just because you can.
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Kip Lewis
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 6
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I didn't mean that as an excuse or that they are right to
do so. I am just saying that it is all about money. That
is reality, not that they are right, wise or smart.
Well, money and pride. I half wonder if the new FF movie
is being purposely done off-model to spite Marvel. Fox is
either trying to make an altered version of the FF so
popular that it forces the old version out of the market.
Or it does so bad that Marvel won't be able to make another
FF movie for long time, even if they get the rights back.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 7
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True, the comic fans who go see a movie are a relatively small group and probably don't matter to the movie studios. BUT they're adapting these properties for a reason. AND 50 or 70 years of these characters being finetuned in hundreds of stories should be respected.
And look how well it works out when movie studios create their OWN super-heroes! (HANCOCK anyone?) THE INCREDIBLES is the exception, and that's because Brad Bird is a genius. And, of course, do you think Brad Bird even once thought about arbitrarily making one member of the Incredible family a different race than the rest? It would have been looked at like a major mistake and puzzled millions of people.
But, again, it's not about race. It's about respecting the tried and true source material. I'm probably more bothered by the casting of the Thing and Mr. Fantastic! But when you get to rewriting their entire back story, you come up with the only comic book/super-hero movie that I will avoid at all costs.
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Kip Lewis
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| Posted: 15 June 2014 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | 8
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I think one of the things that muddies the
waters is that while for us it is about
being faithful to the source, there are
those who are racists and loud who are
against it because he's Black.
These are the same people who complained
about Rue in the Hunger Games who was
Black in the movie. People complained
about that, even though it fit her
description in the book. I read comments
that were basically say, "why would we
feel sad for her dying? But if she is
white, then it would be sad."
As long as those people are out there
saying things like that, some people just
will not hear any other reason we may
give.
Edited by Kip Lewis on 15 June 2014 at 8:45pm
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Stephen Churay
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| Posted: 16 June 2014 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 9
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I think one of the things that muddies the
waters is that while for us it is about
being faithful to the source, there are
those who are racists and loud who are
against it because he's Black...
...As long as those people are out there
saying things like that, some people just
will not hear any other reason we may
give.
=======
I'm sure those people are out there. But for me to be called a racist
because those people would lump me in with that is just as
discriminating.
What aggravates me most about this is that it doesn't even maximize
the idea of race swapping. If diversity is what they wanted, why not
make both Johnny AND Sue black and have Reed and Sue in a
relationship. That would've made more sense to me.
But, let's say that's not the agenda and Trank just thinks Michael B.
Jordan is a hell of an actor and will make a great Human Torch. Well,
now a back story has to be created to explain this because today's
audience is gonna want to know. Now they're working a side plot that
doesn't advance the story, just to justify this.
Personally, I think Jordan IS a good actor and if they're casting FF,
this young, they've really missed the boat on making him the Black
Panther. I could easily see Djimon Hounsou as T'Chaka and Jordan
as T'Challa. Now that's scrapped and you have a new problem which
is, there aren't that many young, good black actors out the who could
fill that role. This is mainly due to Hollywood not creating movies with
good original black characters, which to me, is the real crime.
These are the same arguments I had at my LCS. What REALLY made
me laugh was when I brought up the forum and OUR HOST got
accused of being racist. It took a solid two minutes for me to stop
laughing. I couldn't believe this man's ignorance. I just pointed him
to...
THE HIGH WAYS
DOOMSDAY.1
TRIO
TRIPLE HELIX
NEXT MEN
JURASSIC PARK
All feature prominent, original minority characters in either major or
lead roles. Since his move to IDW, JB has probably singlehandedly
create more minority characters in his creator owned books than the
whole of Marvel or DC has in the same timeframe.
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Taavi Suhonen
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| Posted: 16 June 2014 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 10
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Stephen Churay wrote:
| if they're casting FF, this young, they've really missed the boat on making him the Black Panther |
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Fox doesn't have the rights to use the Black Panther. Although he first appeared on the pages of the Fantastic Four, his film rights are separate from theirs and belong to Marvel.
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 16 June 2014 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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Now that's scrapped and you have a new problem which
is, there aren't that many young, good black actors out the who could
fill that role. --------------------------------------- They've scratched Michael B Jordan from paying the Black Panther and now there's going to be a problem casting that role? I couldn't disagree more. Even ignoring the fact that there's a direct precedent of an actor playing the Torch being successfully cast as another major Marvel character within a few years, there's a multitude of candidates who could do the role justice.
Chiwetel Ejiofor, David Oyelowo and Chadwick Boseman are a few names just off the top off my head who could easily play the role.
Edited by Peter Martin on 16 June 2014 at 3:39pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 16 June 2014 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 12
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JB has probably singlehandedly create more minority characters in his creator owned books than the whole of Marvel or DC has in the same timeframe.•• Since the beginning, if a character shows up in one of my stories and it not necessary to the plot that s/he be White, I make that character a minority. Especially authority figures. Doctors, judges, cops, mayors, etc.
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Topic Closed)
