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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14857
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Posted: 08 April 2014 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | 1
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Since people seem to be confused and since this thread is mostly pointless Joe rambling now, I will clarify that I was bristling at the tone and connotation Joe when he made the prostitute comparison.
In the worst case scenario regarding prostitution, you are talking about women who are trafficked and exploited, and using prostitute as shorthand for something to be despised is dehumanizing.
In the best case scenario, you are talking about people who are taking part in an activity that is perfectly legal if money is not exchanged, but is somehow horrible and illegal if money changes hands. Meanwhile, porn is a billion dollar industry, which means a lot of people are enjoying watching people getting paid to have sex, while simultaneously turning up their noses at people getting paid to have sex. Which makes using prostitute as shorthand for something to be despised as hypocritical.
But everyone is free to use the word prostitute. Whore is a little bit more loaded, but no one is asking you not to use that word either.
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 3:15am | IP Logged | 2
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Comics are a commercial product AND they're art. Things like comics can inhabit two spheres. The way I look at it, nothing is pure product, while on the other hand, nothing is pure art. There isn't product that someone down the line hasn't added an artistic flair too and even the most obscure and high-brow artistic creations have been turned into money making schemes.
Now if you mean "most practically important aspect of" everyone in touch with reality would have to agree; being able to make money allows one to survive in modern society and all. That being said, I think the psychological need for expression, in an overall philosophical sense, trumps money making in the end. You can make money in numerous ways, but you can't really do what art does outside the realm of art. People started creating art to express themselves first and the idea of turning it into a way to amass wealth came second.
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Carmen Bernardo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 3666
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 4:15am | IP Logged | 3
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I wonder if we're going to have a spinoff thread about the pros and cons of prostitution? Seems like it's drifting that way.
Closer To the Topic:
My take on Cho's not liking Superman is akin to something that I read about Jack Kirby not wanting to do any Batman stories when he went to DC after his big Marvel stint. I recall the statement being that Jack really didn't like the shades of grey in what Batman was doing with his crimefighting, unlike Superman who would do the right thing. It may be that Cho is the reverse, where Supes is that boy scout who has too many good points to make him "real" enough as a character.
To each his own.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7788
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 4:38am | IP Logged | 4
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The problem with the whole defence of 'At least he isn't drawing Superman so what's the problem' is that he chose to redraw pages from Dark Knight Returns.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15953
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 5
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Comics is a business. That they occasionally elevate themselves above and beyond a product to be bought and sold is a plus. The same can be said for anything. Books, movies, television, games. You name it. Number one is sales.------------------------------------------- I think this is very true of the businesses that produce comics, books, movies, tv shows, etc. Clearly it varies from person to person, but I think it is less true for the creators who work on these products.
There are numerous examples of creators whose careers are driven far more by art for art's sake approach than scoring their next hit, as there are numerous examples of those who will fart out anything in the hopes of making some money. Interestingly I can easily think of paradigms of each type for other art forms (cinema: Ingmar Bergman vs Uwe Bol; Novels: Harper Lee vs Michael Patterson), but in the case of comics, Steve Ditko would be a good example of someone driven by other forces than sales, but no name springs readily to mind as a writer or artist mainly (or purely) driven by chasing sales. I'm sure they exist, of course.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15953
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 6
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And also interestingly, it's difficult to think of a creator in television off the top of my head who has little or no interest in viewing figures.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35945
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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Yeah, I don't know anyone in my industry, television, that doesn't keep a close watch on the numbers be they ratings, budget or any of a hundred other numbers that have nothing to do with the merits of what they are creating.
As to your comment about creators themselves, I agree...to a point. There are those rare creators that don't care about the sale but only about the art. Ditko is obviously one of them. But even creators who have ambitions higher than churning out work day in and out have to worry themselves about the sales as well. Maybe not as much as others, but they do nonetheless. It's what puts food on the table, 'natch, but also can aide in the creation itself in that sometimes art for art's sake can be a masturbatory exercise if you catch my drift. Many are the times a creator in any medium sat down to do their best job possible without thinking that what they were creating was "art" or would have any lasting appeal beyond that month or year. I think people can get caught up in the trap of trying to create "art" instead of just expressing themselves the best way they know how and letting the chips fall where they may. For instance, instead of trying to write "the next great American novel", just write a story that is interesting and compelling. Let future generations decide if that story is transcendent.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14857
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 8
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The problem with the whole defence of 'At least he isn't drawing Superman so what's the problem' is that he chose to redraw pages from Dark Knight Returns.
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For a private commission. If he were portraying Superman in an ACTUAL DC comic, then it'd be an issue.
I'm curious, what were the responses to Wally Wood's Disney orgy and Curt Swan's "Superman" illustrations for Penthouse?
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Thom Price Byrne Robotics Member
LHomme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7593
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | 9
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For a private commission.
*** Which was then posted publicly. You don't find "I hate Superman, so watch me piss all over him!" rather tacky?
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14857
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 10
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You don't find "I hate Superman, so watch me piss all over him!" rather tacky?
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Sure. But why does it matter if he's not drawing the Superman comic? And even if he were drawing the Superman comic, why would his attitude matter if it wasn't apparent in his work?
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Thom Price Byrne Robotics Member
LHomme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7593
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 11
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But why does it matter if he's not drawing the Superman comic?
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Has someone said it matters? Genuine question, because following this thread I feel like there's a huge disconnect. I don't recall anyone calling for Cho to be tarred and feathered, or drummed out of the comic book industry. He posted something controversial, people responded.
I keep seeing this re-framed as "It's only his opinion" but it's beyond that.
"I hate Superman." Who cares?
"I hate Superman, so I decline all offers to draw him." Good for you.
"I hate Superman, so watch me take a big dump on him publicly!" You're kind of a jerk.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4623
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Posted: 09 April 2014 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 12
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Carmen Bernardo wrote:
akin to something that I read about Jack Kirby not wanting to do any Batman stories when he went to DC after his big Marvel stint. I recall the statement being that Jack really didn't like the shades of grey in what Batman was doing with his crimefighting, unlike Superman who would do the right thing. |
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I know it doesn't change your overall point, but I doubt this story you read is true. The notion that there are any "shades of gray" in Batman's attitude or approach is a post-Miller idea. In the 60s and 70s Batman was just as much a "boy scout" as Superman. He worked closely with the police and other law enforcement agencies, and was in fact presented as a duly deputized special officer of the Gotham police force. He was just as concerned with upholding the law and doing the right thing as Superman was. So I doubt Kirby would have had any objection to the character on those grounds.
In general, Kirby had no interest in working on any characters that had been created by someone else, and at DC he only did so when specifically asked by Carmine Infantino. From what I've read, he viewed it as a challenge to work on a character he was uninterested in, rather than declining assignments if he didn't like a character. But I doubt Kirby would have been asked to do Batman stories at that point, since the character seems a poor match for his skill set.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 09 April 2014 at 2:21pm
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