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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4180
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 3:42am | IP Logged | 1
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Peter Martin wrote:
I didn't call it a fan idea. I said it satisfies a fannish desire. And it was clear from my post that we were discussing an idea that came from Stan Lee, so what worth is there in you pointing out the the idea came from Stan Lee? |
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To set up the rest of the post. I knew the first part was redundant going in, but I couldn't think of a better way to start. Sorry.
Like it or hate it, the marriage was a logical evolution for the character (he'd been talking marriage since the Ditko days, albeit with Betty). Some segments of fandom thought it was a horrible idea, some thought it was a great idea and most didn't really care how Peter Parker spent his nights as long as Spider-Man's adventures were interesting.
However, the desire for Peter Parker to not only be unmarried (which could have been done the old fashioned way), but to have Never Been Married, and the methods used to make it happen, strike me as fannish devotion to a favored incarnation of the character.
All of which gets back to the notion that not all major changes are "fannish ideas." Some are just attempts by the creative teams to avoid character stagnation and occasionally misfiring in the eyes of the fans.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 3:56am | IP Logged | 2
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Like it or hate it, the marriage was a logical evolution for the character...••• Fictional characters do not "evolve." Especially not if they are part of ongoing serial fiction, in which different creative teams will plot their exploits over many years. Even when the same hand guides a character thru his/her entire existence, changes occur not because they are "natural," but because the writer wants them to happen. (Stan wanted Peter and MJ to marry because he was writing the newspaper strip as more of a soap opera. I was even told he was surprised to find this had been brought into the comics themselves.)* Logic is only occasionally a factor. _______________ * It should also be remembered that the wedding was played as a big stunt in the comics. DC had generated a lot of press with the issue of ACTION COMICS in which Superman and Lois Lane "finally" got married (avoiding drawing a lot of attention to the fact that it was actually a flashback to the wedding of the Earth 2 versions), and Marvel wanted a piece of that. Of course, outside fandom, the much publicized wedding of Spider-Man and MJ was greeted with a big "Huh?" The general public had no idea who Spider-Man's supporting cast was, or whether he was married or not.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 4:19am | IP Logged | 3
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-Stan Lee and friends put growth and aging and change into the very DNA of the characters! ••• AT FIRST. In the early days, when none of the folk up at Marvel had any way of knowing whether the latest venture would last more than a few years. When it became obvious Marvel was "here to stay," Stan and the gang applied the brakes. For some elements, it was already too late -- Reed and Sue were married, Franklin had been born, Peter Parker had graduated from high school, Johnny Storm was clearly no longer a teenager -- but time as a vital part of the character's lives ceased to exist. This was especially true when long continued stories became the norm. For the Fantastic Four, a dozen issues might mean half a day. And the next issue would give no indication of further time lapse. Franklin was even quietly shunted to the side, removing a constant reminder that time was not passing. It was with the influx of more and more fans-turned-pro that the obsession with "real time" began to assert itself. Even after the introduction of the unofficial "Seven Year Rule" -- it had been seven years since the FF went up in their rocket, AND ALWAYS WOULD BE -- it did not take long for some to start "doing the math." "Well, if it was seven years in 1978, it must be TEN years by now!" Point missed. (I even saw one "reviewer," around 1980, disputing the Seven Year Rule because the stories were clearly not taking place in 1968!) It's all very simple. The characters are not real. As noted above, they do not "evolve." All changes are arbitrary, dictated by the whims of the writers. But that can be a GOOD thing, too. It means some of the things that vex we mere mortals, like the relentless march of time, need never touch these characters. Generations of readers can enjoy them, as originally intended.
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 4
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Another point about never changing serial characters is that liking things to stay basically the same with said characters is not the same thing as saying "I like all fictional characters across all genres to stay the same."
As soon as you say this to some people, they want to instantly label you a variety of things. Some characters only work if they evolve and end, while others need to stay more or less the same forever. To be honest, I'll always love Batman, the Hulk, etc, but I realize that I need breaks from them at times. This doesn't, however, mean I'm bored with them and want them to be radically altered to the point that they're unrecognizable so I never need a break. I think with serial characters like that it works best to get your "dose" while your in the mood for their adventures, move on to something else for awhile, then come back when you're in the mood. Simple equation for me.
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6003
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 6:35am | IP Logged | 5
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Generations of readers can enjoy them, as originally intended.---JB
I can barely stand to look at the DC or Marvel comics these days.
Society protects buildings and artifacts of historical significance. Here in the UK we refer to building's past a specific date, that enjoy such protection as "listed". The grade of the listing, determines how stringent the rules effecting their protection will be.
I look at character I grew up with, (which I suspect had already changed somewhat from their origin, when I was reading them in the 70's and 80's), now changed beyond almost all recognition, with very little but a symbol and a name, shared with the source.
It makes me wish that their had been steps taken to protect something that, has such a tangible link to 'modern' history. Now of course whole generations have grown up on characters that bare the same names but little else from the source and to change those would be to put those fans through exactly the same.
Maybe, like restoring an old building, the decades of lousy wall paper need scraped off to reveal the beauty underneath!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 6
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Maybe, like restoring an old building, the decades of lousy wall paper need scraped off to reveal the beauty underneath!•• That was, of course, the Big Idea behind CRISIS. Unfortunately, what was missing was the WILL to make it really happen. Again, too many fans-turned-pro in the mix, who did not want to let go of their favorite bits and pieces of DC's cluttered history. As many of you know, Dick Giordano originally offered what would become CRISIS to me. Back then, it was called THE HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE (which would later appear in an altered form), and the idea was to line up all the ducks in twelve issues, and then blow up the arcade. The next month, all the books would begin again with new first issues. It was Frank Miller, sitting in on the dinner where Dick made the offer, who strongly advised me against taking the job. "They'll crucify you!" Which "they" probably would have, but there was no danger of me accepting Dick's proposal. As I told him, my knowledge of the DCU was not nearly as complete as was my knowledge of Marvel. I was well set up, in fact, to do something like that at Marvel -- but Marvel, at that time, didn't need it. So HISTORY went away, and mutated in CRISIS, and immediately started fraying at the edges. (Yes, there's Captain Carrot again!) And, most odd of all, DC insisted on doing their HISTORY book to show the NEW version of the DCU -- a version they were already planning on overturning with the likes of MAN OF STEEL and BATMAN: YEAR ONE. We see a stark contrast, reflecting the deep involvement of fans where they really should not be, in the difference between CRISIS and the relaunch of superheroes DC had initiated some thirty years earlier. Back when the Silver Age Flash made his debut, there was no such thing as organized fandom, and if National Periodicals received any mail complaining about this overturning of "history", they simply did not print them. They just plowed ahead with the Plan -- new names, new faces, new characters. Except for that one tiny slip. A slip that was titled "The Flash of Two Worlds." Impossible to have foreseen, when that story was published, how long and damaging its shadow would be!
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 7
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I'm currently re-watching the complete BTAS on DVD and one of the features struck me. The one on the second disc of volume 1 has one with all the creators talking about the legacy of the show. Bruce Timm stated that he had very different ideas in, some aspects, for what he initially wanted to do with Batman, but it wouldn't have been right for the show so they did something else. I have no idea what that was, since he didn't go into specifics, but it sounded very close to "This is what I would do if I was writing fan-fic but I'm going to do this other thing so it's a more well-rounded show."
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132644
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 8
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I'm currently re-watching the complete BTAS on DVD and one of the features struck me. The one on the second disc of volume 1 has one with all the creators talking about the legacy of the show. Bruce Timm stated that he had very different ideas in, some aspects, for what he initially wanted to do with Batman, but it wouldn't have been right for the show so they did something else. I have no idea what that was, since he didn't go into specifics, but it sounded very close to "This is what I would do if I was writing fan-fic but I'm going to do this other thing so it's a more well-rounded show."•• That sounds about right. I had lunch with Bruce and Paul Dini during a visit to LA in '94 (Oy!), and they both came across a very enthusiastic fans of the material -- but fans who knew to check their fanthink at the door.
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DW Zomberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 June 2012 Posts: 444
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 9
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<marriage was a logical evolution of the character>
Then so is middle age and death.
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Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 10
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Impossible to have foreseen, when that story was published, how long and damaging its shadow would be!
I think if only Barry Allen would've been able to cross the 'bridge' between Earths, the damage would've been minimized.
Earth-2 was a nice device for occasional stories, not a good idea for a regular appearances!
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15881
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 11
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To set up the rest of the post. I knew the first part was redundant going in, but I couldn't think of a better way to start. Sorry.------------------------------------------------- I get you. No need to say sorry, but I appreciate the explanation.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 04 February 2014 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 12
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It's all very simple. The characters are not real. As noted above, they
do not "evolve." All changes are arbitrary, dictated by the whims of
the writers. But that can be a GOOD thing, too. It means some of the
things that vex we mere mortals, like the relentless march of time, need
never touch these characters. Generations of readers can enjoy them, as
originally intended.
***
This can be a GOOD thing. It's what I like about comics.
In the real world, I'm disappointed that wrestlers who are now in their sixties and seventies can't wrestle; I'm disappointed that the likes of Roger Moore can't do action movies; and I'm disappointed that the likes of Basil Rathbone are no longer with us to play Sherlock Holmes. We all age, we all die.
But comics is cool because that doesn't happen. Christopher Reeve, if he were alive today and had never had that tragic accident, would now be in his sixties and perhaps too old to play Superman. But comic Superman can be around for decades, the next 75/100/200 years.
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