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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2204
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| Posted: 02 February 2014 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 1
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I begin to think we are not talking about the same thing. The OP was about fans turned pro. Sure there are fans (or just amateur writers/artists/whatever) who exhibit professional qualities. Awesome! They have a leg up in eventually getting paid to do it. Sometimes, the only difference is they haven't been paid. The issue was pros who haven't shed their fanboy proclivities after they started getting paid. Phoned-in cookie-cutter stories by pros are not the mark of fanboy turned pro. They are the mark of pro not trying very hard. At least the level of mediocrity is at a level of minimal competence. A fanboy turned pro who can't absent themselves from their fanboy mindset can (with enough skill) very competently and entertainingly, tell stories that when you add it up are little more than stuff they'd like to see. Which makes it a weird kind of porn. I think there is a large difference between a "fan" and a "fanboy" since the latter seem to be investing part of their ego in the minutia of their chosen media. The sort who is offended by the claim that Star Wars represents higher technology than Star Trek, and is willing to spend years arguing with those of the opposing view to defend the Truth. That goes way beyond just being a fan, and yet may drive them into the trade. This is a corrosive frame of mind to bring with you into a professional environment, should they develop the skills to do so. |
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 02 February 2014 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 2
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Fanfic, is should be noted, is another animal entirely. There, the fans
usually aren't pretending to be real. The problems arise when the
self-indulgent elements that can be found in some fanfic begin to work
their way into the "real" stuff.
***
This is why I found it easy to tune into the film YOUNG SHERLOCK HOLMES, which had a disclaimer before and after the film, showing it was a "what if?" story.
It's why I didn't mind the Marvel WHAT IF? comics. Parker giving up his secret identity or things like that belong in such titles. What I don't like is when glorified fan fiction finds it's way into mainstream titles.
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Jack Michaels
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 June 2013
Posts: 422
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| Posted: 02 February 2014 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
| I begin to think we are not talking about the same thing. |
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Then I'm not sure how the "Hollow Apple" applies to anything related to fans. At most it's noting how the most popular characters have some substance behind them, as the the Golden and Silver Age hollow apples have fallen away and are largely forgotten, so if you want to create something which lasts, then don't just combine Batman with Wolverine and have him engage in endless battles with cyborg pirate ninjas monkeys.
The difference between fans and non-fans is just influence. The fan is influenced very heavily by the material they're writing for, which combines with their other writing tendencies in all sorts of ways. Such as we have the Custodian, who thinks it's his duty to preserve the integrity of the character and spends far more time then he should ridding the canon of out-of-character moments. Or we have the Serious guy who crams more adult themes into the work in order to prove to the outside world the characters should be taken seriously. There's the Nostalgist, who wants to recreate the stories of his youth. There's the Continuitist, whose mission in life is to create a single unified continuity. The Fanwankest who thinks the mark of a good story is how many team-ups and references you can shove in. And probably a few more that temporary escape me.
If you're a professional writer, these are the kinds of stories you have to be really, really careful of writing, because it's really easy to turn it into something completely uninteresting to casual fans who just want to see some cool adventures. If you're really, really good at what you do, then you can push your luck and write something which appeals to both hardcore fans and casuals, but it's a tricky balance and most writers are deluding themselves that they can pull it off.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 5:14am | IP Logged | 4
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I think there is a large difference between a "fan" and a "fanboy" since the latter seem to be investing part of their ego in the minutia of their chosen media.••• The first time I ever encountered the term "fanboy" it was being used a pejorative. It described the kind over over-the-top fans whose attitudes and behavior embarrass other fans. Somewhere along the way it became a general term, with "fangirl" appearing as if the term was born out of gender distinction. Here in the JBF I encourage the original definition. After all, that's actually a useful distinction.
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 6:16am | IP Logged | 5
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I'm 36, so if anything, I'm a "fanman" at this point.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 6
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I'm 36, so if anything, I'm a "fanman" at this point. •• Do fans of football, baseball, Harry Potter movies, NASCAR, etc make these distinctions?
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 7
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It's worse in sports JB - the fans actually talk like they are a participant in the games in an effort to talk trash to fans of other teams. They really have a hard time recognizing the difference between being a spectator and and being involved in the game itself.
And don't even get me started on the movie 'Trekkies'!
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Craig Markley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3969
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 8
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12th Man!!!!
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2204
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 9
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Jack, I believe we are now talking about the same thing, and are wandering into rough agreement.As for how the "hollow apple" applies to fans: They have to a)create stories, and b)do the fanboy wank thing. In the case of fans, or even fanboys, this is largely harmless because they aren't in charge of maintaining the health of decades-old franchises. Nor is anybody going to have switch to ramen for dinner because they failed.
A budding writer may well benefit from that whole process if they are self-aware enough to see their current story failed (like my actor friend). Failure is an excellent teacher.
Bring the fanboy mentality into professional work though, as per the OP, and then Supergirl: Many Happy Returns happens. A skillfully told, nicely drawn wank-o-rama.
JB, Robert: Once, a friend of mine used the word "we" when referring to the Federation in a conversation about Star Trek.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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Once, a friend of mine used the word "we" when referring to the Federation in a conversation about Star Trek.••• "We" is a trap many of us fall into. We'll talk of how "we" won the war, or "we" went to the Moon, or "we" discovered penicillin. But in reality, these things, and many more, were the accomplishments of people who lived before we were born, or who belong to a very small and select group whose knowledge and wisdom far exceeded that of Society as a whole.
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Jeff Fettes
Byrne Robotics R&D
Joined: 01 October 2003
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 11
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I think the main difference is that Fans and Fans-turned-pro who don't know better tend to me more self-indulgent with the characters. Rather than considering the potential audience, they're try to project the characters onto their own lives. Peter Parker should be married and have a good job because that's what they want for themselves.The true professionals are able to write meaningful stories that are touching and moving without having to make the character something it's not and certainly without having to make fun of the character, origins of the character or the medium to get impact.
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Jack Michaels
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 June 2013
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| Posted: 03 February 2014 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
| I think the main difference is that Fans and Fans-turned-pro who don't know better tend to me more self-indulgent with the characters. Rather than considering the potential audience, they're try to project the characters onto their own lives. Peter Parker should be married and have a good job because that's what they want for themselves. |
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Pros will make the exact same mistake. I mentioned Mork & Mindy getting married and having a kid to stave off cancellation, but the most famous was Lil' Abner and Daisy Mae getting married. A quick googling and I find it was Stan Lee who came up the Peter Parker marriage and unless we're accusing him of being the sort of fan-turned-pro the industry doesn't need...
Because sometimes that really good idea you think you have isn't. Pros are no more immune than fans. They can get bored with the status quo and decide to go for a change, which may or may not be exactly what the franchise needs.
Very recently Archer ditched the spy set-up for a Miami Vice themed drug runner format, and so far it's been one of the best seasons with a format which seems just as pregnant with possibility as the one they just ditched (and fits in very easily with what has gone before). The show's creator had just gotten a bit bored with the same old.
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Topic Closed)
