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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 01 February 2014 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 1  

I've honestly always struggled with totally understanding the Len Wein quote. I can see how fan stories could suck - certainly anything I came up with during my legendary MEGO-Action-Figure Period back in the early 70's would be crap - but isn't a bad story just a bad story? And a good one a good one? Isn't it that simple?

•••

Not sure how to answer this, since you've answered it yourself.

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Gene Best
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Posted: 01 February 2014 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 2  

Not sure how to answer this, since you've answered it yourself.

--

Then I haven't even earned a place at The Kids Table yet, as I don't know how I answered it.

Asked another way perhaps - how does "the first story you'd do as a fan" equate to a bad story in Len's example?  
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 01 February 2014 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 3  

Any given story by Bendis, nuff said!

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 2:02am | IP Logged | 4  

Gene, I'll give this a go... As a fan, there are inevitably certain stories and characters you would love to work with if you could only get your hands on them. Something in an earlier story you read sparked something and the need to comment on it or give it a special spin or whatever you're burning to do... Likely isn't going to make for a good story or one that serves the best interests of the character in the long term. Fanfic is rife with stories of Kirk or Spock in terrible agony, dying, with a mind-meld as the only possible means to deliver relief from the suffering. Often such melds lead to sex. To some fans, this is Ev-Er-ything you could ever want from Star Trek! Two men, deep personal friends, sharing one another's minds, consoling one another through the worst, most unimaginable pain...

But it has nothing whatsoever to do with how a professional Star Trek script is written. It has nothing to do with the five-year mission, seeking out new life, or even the basic requirements of a three-act television script. It would also be the last story that could ever be done be the characters of Kirk and Spock as we know them because they would either be dead or lovers afterwards. "But that would be so great!" the fannish fans enthuse... Real story progression! Forward motion! And it would be great. For that one-one-hundred-thousandth of the audience. The appeal would be lost on everyone else and the actual dialogue, pacing, etc. would likely reek of amatuerism.

You don't have to love the characters to do a professionally written script about them. You just have to know them fairly well and be able to write professionally. One of the giant red-flag moments in recent comic book history for me was when Mark Waid joined a DC convention panel for a few minutes, announcing that he was going to write the next big Legion reboot (whereas he only edited the last two...) Questions from the audience flew fast and furiously, but he had somewhere else he had to be. Not to worry, he told the audience as he was leaving. "No one loves the Legion more than I do!"

And I knew the book was in trouble. Because LOVE isn't what makes the world go around. Not in professional circles anyway. And sure enough, the book was some nonsense about the Legion as a youth movement in a world of evil grown-ups, with all the "kids" of course being about two weeks from adulthood themselves. Characters were reduced to bad jokes. Colossal Boy wanted to be named "Micro-Lad" because all of the people on his world are big, y'see, and he had the special power to turn small, like the rest of us. See? Micro-Lad! Funny, right? Right? Yeah, not especially so... Not really. And really not a solid basis for the character to build on in the future, either.

But who cares about that, right? It's about love! Who knows how long he had that joke up his sleeve? Because he loves the Legion!

You can't really build a future on that kind of love. You have to have professionally written scripts that preserve the integrity of the product and the brand. You need imaginative, involving material that nevertheless leaves something for the next issue to build on.

That "first script you want to do as a fan" probably hasn't been written yet for a reason. You need to let go of that clingy, needy kind of fan-drama that results in epic pain or epic silliness for the characters and focus on good storytelling, absent your fannish inclinations to finally make the Yellow Peri a sales success or to finally marry off Vartox and Lana Lang for good. Those are weird little character fetishes. They're not stories.

Do not get me started on the Saturn Girl/ Proty marraige...

Today's writers may in fact not be traditional fanboys who have stories about these characters they've been dying to tell since they were thirteen, but the market today is completely built around an audience that is. The product nowadays therefore plays directly for that sweet spot with the characters in horrific pain with entire cities in rubble because Miracleman #15 was the god-damn-coolest-thing-any-modern-comic-book-reader-has ever-seen!

There is no protection for the characters anymore, no consideration for preserving any sort of basic premise for the future. Marvin gets eaten by Wonderdog and Bizarro punches the dead corpse of the Human Bomb until his "pretty lights go out." Forget the future. It can take care of itself. Right now, we've got stuff to do... (See also: Modern Energy Policy.) No one cares if we make Reed responsible for a nutty Thor clone who killed who-knows-how-many-people and that Reed did it all over some failed government policy. You know what? We don't need to save Reed from that. Three years from now, no one's going to care anyway! Other stuff will be happening! Why not do the fanboy thing? The fanboy thing sells like hotcakes to fanboys!  And really, the fanboys are the only ones left, so we may as well try to make them happy...

Controversy for controversy's sake sells. You know, if we did a story where we said Bruce was gay and the reason he didn't turn into the Hulk that time he was about to be raped at the Y was because secretly he was into it, we'd sell some books. Later, we just chalk it up to that Bereet lady making cheesy pornos now that he career's in the toilet. Yeah... 'Cause the Rampaging Hulk mag turned out to be all imaginary stuff anyway, something fanboys either already know or should know. And in the meantime we get some column inches out of the deal.

Sure, there'll be jokes about the name "Bruce" and the lavender pants, but those things are out there already... If we genuinely have reason to believe it will sell, it would be financial malfeasance and stockholder fraud NOT to do it...!!

Fanboy logic. Short emotional payoff, built on stupid events, with a firm reliance upon the lowest tricks of the medium to save our asses when the whole thing goes to hell, as Sins Past, Brand New Day, et al ad infinitum have... Let the characters fend for themselves. They're here for us, not the other way around. Stack the events, staggering them like Lego bricks so that when one storyline falls apart behind us, we're already onto the next one. As long as we keep moving, they'll never tag us out...

I don't hold with the idea that modern writers are all fanboys, but their output is exactly what would occur if fanboys ran the world, because fanboy-style entertainment is what is selling to the fanboys.



Edited by Brian Hague on 02 February 2014 at 2:11am
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 3:07am | IP Logged | 5  

A pro (thinking like a pro) will understand that a story (like any art) is a way of communicating an idea without just saying it verbally.  An idiom.  A fan is more concerned with the events that are used than the subtext, and since (by it's nature) subtext is not verbalized may only register the subtext in non-verbal impressions.
Current example:  The movie Gravity.  This is a story about when bad things happen in life, you have to let go of them in order to move forward or they will hold you down, like gravity.  Alfonso Cuaron being a pretty slick filmmaker made it so practically everything that happens in the story, even the physically impossible things tied into the subtext in some way. The characters chosen, the setting, the events are all just craft to support the subtext..
If you approach the story with a fanboy mentality, you get what Scott McCloud actually said quite well here:
The Fan mindset is perfectly okay to have as long as you aren't the one making the stories. You have to put on your Pro Hat while you work, and leave the Fan Hat at the door.  Feel free to put it back on when you go home!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 6  

It sorta works like this:

Editor: I need someone to write a history of our superheroes.

Pro: I'll do it! Imagine the scope, the grandeur!

Fan/Pro: I'll do it! At last we'll be able to show the origin of that obscure character who appeared in three panels of a cancelled series forty years ago!

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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 7  

Conrad, I think you're giving pros way too much credit there. There's lots of people who make their living writing without understanding very much of the craft. There's plenty of cookie-cutter formulas which allow them to endless write the same two or three stories. Police procedurals are a pretty good example on television where an average plot involves the cast of eccentric crime fighters following a trail of clues until they realize either a) the first person they talked to did it, b) the person who had one line of dialogue did it, or c) the celebrity guest star did it. 

If you delve into more pulpy fare (super-hero, science fiction, singing cowboy, whatever), you have the standard plot where the eternally good hero defeats some random evil scheme from the eternally evil villain and wins the heart of the eternally true and pure love interest. 

Whereas there's lots of intellectually inclined fans who are masters of sub-text, since it really only requires you to appreciate a different kind of story telling. 

I think it really comes down to fans being interested in the minutia of their chosen universe and wanting to explore every nook and cranny. They want to write stories exploring the friendship of Xander and Jesse, they want to see the unmade sequel to that crappy Preying Mantis episode. The problem is like any good obsessive if they don't understand the general audience simply does not care about this kind of stuff and most aren't talented enough to make them care.

Most of the bad writing examples I see in this thread have been extremely common for as long as I can remember. I'd take a good fan writer over a lousy pro writer any day of the week, even if they show a strange inclination to explaining decades old inconsistencies. I point to the Nu Who as an example of exactly that kind of thing, as they've regained a large mainstream audience after losing them in the 80s through a lot of bad writing... not all of it bad fan writing. 
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Gene Best
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 8  

Methinks I got it.  Thanks, Brian, Conrad & JB.  So (at least in the context of Len Wein's quote), the "first story you'd do as a fan" is probably unskilled and self-indulgent - less discretion around what might be a legitimately good story and more about how the writer can do HIS thing with the characters.  (Even unconsciously?) The story serves the whim of the writer - rather than him being a steward of the characters.

Brian - the Star Trek example brought it home for me.  No disrespect meant, but the various Trek fan productions on YouTube are pretty much unwatchable to me - despite them clearly being done with great affection - and, probably in their minds, great care.  As Scott McCloud said in Conrad's link, those stories probably look great at a faraway glance.

Am I getting it?
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
(Even unconsciously?) The story serves the whim of the writer - rather than him being a steward of the characters.

This is exactly one of the attitudes I think doesn't have any fan correlation. 

In comics, we saw it in the British invasion as a lot of talented writers, who were not fans of the characters they were assigned, set about to show everyone what they could do. So these weren't fans-turned-pro in any real sense of the word. Alan Moore can wax intellectually about just about any comic character, but he's never displayed any particular fondness for them or any of the stories he read as a youth. Can we really classify him as a fan-turned-pro? It's not like he became a comic book writer to write Swamp Thing or Batman or Superman. They're just raw material for his brand of writing. 

An example I mentioned a few days ago was the War of the Worlds TV show from the 80s, which was fairly popular in its first year, but changed producers for the second. Said producer set about tearing the entire thing apart and only realized afterwards he had thrown out the very elements which had made the show popular with its friends. He also threw out every last bit of the classic Martian stuff from the H.G. Wells story and the movie it was a sequel to. He clearly wasn't a fan of any of it and just used the opportunity to produce the show he wanted to make, so we're dealing with an attitude that had gone well beyond comics two decades ago. 

Going back further, we have Mork & Mindy pulling out all the stops to try to keep the show on the air, resorting to a marriage, a baby, and a gimmicky 3D episode to stave off cancelation. These weren't done because of fans, these were just common tricks writers have used to buoy interest in their work. Death, marriage, and babies get attention in the short-term, but usually create problems in the long-term, but if it looks like you won't have a job next year, guess what you're very likely to do?

Ego, gimmicks, bad writing... these all existed long before fan writers started using the tricks. 
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 10  

Jack, I concede I chose an example of a "pro" in Alfonso Cuaron where there is ample evidence of his skill in his filmography, plus a movie where he had unusual amounts of creative control (Producer, Writer, Director) relative to most pros who work in a creative team.  It's quite true that the level of craft can be a completely separate issue.  However the chosen goal (i.e., communicating an idea vs whatever a fan is trying to do) will directly affect the application of the craft.  If you are not trying to say something specific, you may well end up saying nothing, but saying it really well, hence McCloud's Shiny Hollow Apple.  

Certainly, this issue isn't as black-and-white as I've been portraying it, but I'm portraying it that way for clarity's sake.  The issue here is attitude, and the consequences it generates.

BTW, your cookie-cutter comment reminds me of a recent conversation I had with an actor friend about outside-influences affecting a story.  If the number of backseat-drivers exceeds zero, this can have a very detrimental effect on the end product.  Alan Brennert once wrote a hilarious piece for Starlog in '81 on working as story editor for the Gil Gerard Buck Rogers In the 25th Century show:  It's about five-sixths of the way down here (or just ctrl-f search for "brennert" and pick the second one):  http://archive.org/stream/starlog_magazine-048/048_djvu.txt 
Funny though it is, after reading that, one wonders how good TV happens at all...

I once asked my actor friend if he'd tried writing.  He said he couldn't.  When he did, it just turned out to be a bunch of action sequences.  On the upside, at least he knows...


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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 11  

Fanfic, is should be noted, is another animal entirely. There, the fans usually aren't pretending to be real. The problems arise when the self-indulgent elements that can be found in some fanfic begin to work their way into the "real" stuff.
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 02 February 2014 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | 12  


 QUOTE:
However the chosen goal (i.e., communicating an idea vs whatever a fan is trying to do) will directly affect the application of the craft.  If you are nottrying to say something specific, you may well end up saying nothing, but saying it really well, hence McCloud's Shiny Hollow Apple.  

As I said, this is nothing new or limited to fan writers. The standard summer action movie has been predominately a vapid and soulless exercise for several decades now, mostly concerned with coming up with awesome stunts than any sort of narrative. 

And while I don't consider him to be in a traditional fan-turned-pro mold (but he's obviously inspired quite a number), The Killing Joke is largely Alan Moore using his not inconsiderable literary powers to beef up an otherwise fannish exploration of the Batman/Joker relationship. 

The McCloud analysis is good as far as it goes, but I don't think it really speaks to any sort of fan experience. A fannish story can be filled to the brim with subtext and meaning, but not consist of anything palatable to a wider audience. There was once a sizable schism in the Doctor Who fanbase, with one side preferring the predictable thrills of novels based closely on the formulas of the TV show, while the other preferred more experimental fare which delved into the history and psyche of the Doctor. The more ambitious of the two being by far the most dependent of fan knowledge. 
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