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Rick Shepherd
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 1  


It's like Tolkien's notion of creating a 'secondary world' in fiction - the idea that in order to get audiences to engage with unreal concepts, settings, characters and whatnot, internal consistency is the key to believability. To quote the great man himself:

"What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful 'sub-creator'. He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true' : it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken ; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive secondary World from outside."


Same goes for consistency of characterisation, and the core values/tone/etc. of people/settings/whatever in serial fiction - in order to make them believable, and thus have the audience fully invested in them, consistency is the key. Therefore, you can't afford to have different writers ignoring prior depictions of the character in order to do 'their take' on them, or else you risk breaking the aforementioned 'spell'. Change the tone, or give a character an inexplicable personality-transplant, and any pretense of realism (and thus investment) goes out of the window.


And besides, even from a purely business standpoint, surely it makes more sense to keep recognisable characters and properties consistent? Unless you've got an audience who've been conditioned to accept constant personality changes and tonal shifts as par for the course (*cough "comicbook fandom!", cough cough*), or you're so desperate to chase marginal sales spikes because of really short-time business thinking (*cough "modern comicbook publishers!", cough cough*), why take a brand with a well-known tone and feel, and constantly change it into something else? Again, looking outside of the myopia of current comics, you don't see that with major mass-appeal fare - fictional brands built on established precepts largely stay consistent once established to consumers, because that's what they keep coming back for! Mickey Mouse has his well-defined, now-set-in-stone personality/schtick, because that's what people who buy into the Mickey brand WANT. If Disney need to sell a different brand with a different tone and 'unique selling point', they create a new character/property, rather than mutating an established one to fit.

Remember when comicbooks used to do that? Instead of turning an existing character against type into a gritty rebooted version, or a broad spoof (see the New Warriors/Speedball for both of those), writers would just, yanno, create a NEW character that fit the brief? Instead of doing an 'edgy' update of, say, Killer Moth (yes, I know about the whole Charaxes farce...), we instead got a new character like the Wrath. Better that than things like Grant Morrison creating 'secondary mutations' for the X-Men, in order to shoehorn the existing cast into power-sets he wanted to use instead of their established abilities, or Brian Bendis inexplicably writing Spider-Man as quipping in Yiddish, or Daniel Way not being able to write Deadpool's fourth-wall-breaking asides properly, and instead opting to give the character multiple personalities (because that's TOTALLY the same thing, right?).

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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 2  

Jack: Less popular characters often require a good, hard look at what does and doesn't work, and sometimes that leads to their "essential core" being ejected and replaced with something they hope will transform the character into something more commercial.
**

How do they "eject" something which doesn't exist?

Your posts about this are just willful refusal to engage the concept. You can argue about some of the window dressing that you like and others don't-- but it's just nonsense to argue that there is no essential core AT ALL to these characters.

The first Spider-Man comics clicked with audiences. After Lee and Ditko, many other teams have made comic books about, essentially, the same character. How? What mysterious process could allow this to happen? Blind coincidence?

Nothing but an understanding of the character could allow this to happen. As the character gathered barnacles and became less recognizable compared to where he started, did the whole world embrace these new changes as instantly part of the mythos? No-- because the barnacles (the marriage, the professorship, etc.) are window dressing that mean nothing to the essence of the character. They merely force the character into situations that hide his most novel and innovative characteristics in favor of stories dictated by his new window dressing.

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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 3  


 QUOTE:
Better that they change with the wind and the whims of anyone writing them.

It can be trivial or it can be a rational rethink. You seem to be assuming that I'm supporting Batman being turned into the last survivor of Batworld because I feel like doing that. 

If you're dealing with a company that is serious about their properties, then they're going to identify which characters are working and protect them. That's just good business. 

But Aquaman. 

Aquaman has been an also ran for as long as Aquaman has been a character. Now, from a fan perspective, I can understand why you might want to keep him as is. He works well enough and he's a part of a greater universe. 

But let's say someone comes up with a killer idea for the character, something which transforms him in a major way (let's say, he's no longer from Atlantis), but opens up story possibilities which could make him a mainstream A-list character. Not a short-term stunt, something with true long-range potential. 

Only in the fan sphere would there be a discussion over whether or not this was a good thing. And that's what I'm talking about when I mean the "essential core" is a fan conceit. If the audience accepts a change, no matter how dramatic, then the world keeps on turning. The "essential core" can be swapped out for something better.

It's when they don't have any idea how to follow up on an idea is when they get into trouble. Superman is in trouble... quick, make Clark a professional snow-boarder, because snow-boarding is cool. 



Edited by Jack Michaels on 08 February 2014 at 5:13pm
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | 4  


 QUOTE:
Jack: Less popular characters often require a good, hard look at what does and doesn't work, and sometimes that leads to their "essential core" being ejected and replaced with something they hope will transform the character into something more commercial. 
**

How do they "eject" something which doesn't exist?

I throw quotation marks around "essential core" for a reason, as in I think it's being misnamed. 

The "essential core" is a collection of tried-and-true attributes which are part of the current success of the character.  

If the character is a proper success, you don't want to mess with it too much. Just a bit a bit of tuning up to make it work better. 

If the character is not a success, then you might want to think about lifting the hood and doing some serious tinkering. 


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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 5  

Jack: I throw quotation marks around "essential core" for a reason, as in I think it's being misnamed.

The "essential core" is a collection of tried-and-true attributes which are part of the current success of the character.

If the character is a proper success, you don't want to mess with it too much. Just a bit a bit of tuning up to make it work better.

If the character is not a success, then you might want to think about lifting the hood and doing some serious tinkering.


***
That's some painfully tortured and stubborn reasoning. So it's only quote: "essential" if it is part of "current" success... but if it's a "proper" success it shouldn't be "messed" with...

In other words, the essential core of a character is what made it a proper success originally and shouldn't be tinkered with if it's still working?

As many of us have been saying all along?

Done. With. This.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | 6  

The "essential core" is a collection of tried-and-true attributes which are part of the current success of the character.  

If the character is a proper success, you don't want to mess with it too much. Just a bit a bit of tuning up to make it work better. 

If the character is not a success, then you might want to think about lifting the hood and doing some serious tinkering.

-----

I don't think anyone but you is arguing for preserving the lameness in lame characters for the sake of keeping them lame.
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 7  


 QUOTE:
That's some painfully tortured and stubborn reasoning. So it's only quote: "essential" if it is part of "current" success... but if it's a "proper" success it shouldn't be "messed" with...

I could have used better language on this. 

The "current" success might be absolutely none whatsoever. A "proper" success is something which is actually successful. 

Batman is a huge success, don't mess with it. Aquaman has a certain measure of success and you shouldn't be too quick to throw it away for just any old idea (but keep an eye out for ways to improve it), but let's say you're tasked to revive Chain Gang War, which probably has the distinction of being the worst comic I ever read. Tear that thing apart and rebuild it. 




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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 8  


 QUOTE:
I don't think anyone but you is arguing for preserving the lameness in lame characters for the sake of keeping them lame.

The problem is fans are often blind to the lameness of things they happen to like. 

Witness the number of people who will say, "I can't understand why people didn't like..." followed by the name of any number of summer action movie bombs. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 9  

The "current" success might be absolutely none whatsoever. A "proper" success is something which is actually successful. 

-----

If the "current" success is not really successful, then how is it a "success"?

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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
If the "current" success is not really successful, then how is it a "success"?

Hence my statement that I could have used better language. 

I'm kind of at a loss for what word to use instead of success for the context I'm going for. I almost suggested "popularity", but then that would also run into the problem of suggesting it is popular. 

Think of it as a Success Scale from 1-10 with 1 being failure and 10 being a massive hit. That's what I mean by current success. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 11  


 QUOTE:
The problem is fans are often blind to the lameness of things they happen to like.

No, that just means they have different tastes. Instead of pissing all over a character that some people like, why not just create something new?


 QUOTE:
Witness the number of people who will say, "I can't understand why people didn't like..." followed by the name of any number of summer action movie bombs.

I'll point out that many of those summer action movie bombs were adaptations that did not preserve the essential core of the characters.
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 08 February 2014 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 12  


 QUOTE:
Instead of pissing all over a character that some people like, why not just create something new?

And that's a wonderful fan attitude. I don't want to attack that point of view. There's a wonderful passion that fans bring to the table, which is why there's many great fan-turned-pro writers. They can zero in on the things they like and communicate it successfully to a mainstream audience. 

But we are dealing with businesses. If there aren't enough fans to support the property, then they're going to start thinking along different lines. 

I'm a big Who fan, so I'll use an example near and dear to my heart. When they were trying to revive Doctor Who in the mid-90s, most of the pitches were reboots. Two-and-a-half decades of the character's history they were willing to sacrifice.

And they were absolutely right to consider it. Had they a really good pitch, they would have been absolutely right to go forward with it. 

Prior to 2005, one of the pitches they received was the Doctor being this strange old man who lived on a street, who was always at the heart of some strangeness or other. I'm not even sure time travel was involved with. The core conceit of the series completely discarded. Good thing that Russel T. Davies wasn't allowed to get his hands on Doctor Who. He later recycled the idea for the Sarah Jane Adventures after he got his hands on Doctor Who. 

Again, absolutely right to put that on the table. 

I'm overjoyed that none of these things came to be, and even grumble at some of the stuff that did come to be... but look at it from a business viewpoint. Doctor Who was a niche property aimed at an aging fanbase which would cease being profitable before too long. Getting it back on the air in any form was better than what they had. 

And it was because Russell T. Davies was able to take a step back from what he thought Doctor Who should be and thought long and hard about what would make Doctor Who successful that it's a worldwide hit. 

I'm a big ol' fanboy. I want you to have your characters in a form you enjoy. I don't want to take them away from you... but a successful pro needs to be able to seriously consider doing exactly that.


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