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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 1  

<I'm supposed to view this period as a "mistake"?>

Yes, because that's exactly what we're saying.

Yeesh.
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 2  


 QUOTE:
A nagging part of this for me makes me ask: Is the pro's job to help make money in short, occasional spikes or to protect the assets so they continue to make money for as long as possible?

It's really not his responsibility either way. He's been asked to do a job. It's his responsibility to do the job to the satisfaction of the person who wants to hire him or refuse the job. 

And if the owners are in short-term thinking, the best thing for everyone to do is walk away. Pros and fans alike. Pros because their reputation will likely not be enhanced by their connection to the work, and fans because you have to starve these kinds of people out. 
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | 3  


 QUOTE:
Comicbook superheroes have indeed been "dramatically" altered for the sake a "current market" of ever-dwindling, ever-aging adult readers. 

They've also been dramatically altered for incredibly popular movies and TV shows, who appeal to kids, teens, and adults. 

Comics have been invaded by short-term thinking in a very big way. They're not building anything, they're in constant crisis management (in the case of DC, in more ways than one). Meanwhile, other people are taking a good hard look at the properties and bringing them to a new generation of fans, and they're keen to build on their success. 
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 4  

Jack: It's really not his responsibility either way. He's been asked to do a job. It's his responsibility to do the job to the satisfaction of the person who wants to hire him or refuse the job.

And if the owners are in short-term thinking, the best thing for everyone to do is walk away. Pros and fans alike. Pros because their reputation will likely not be enhanced by their connection to the work, and fans because you have to starve these kinds of people out.

**

It's wrong for owners to work in short term thinking?

Wouldn't that mean the right way to do the job is to protect the assets so they continue to make money for as long as possible?

...like I asked?

You make it sound like the guy who owns the company tells the writers and artists what to write and draw. That's just not how it works.
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Robert White
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 5  


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Please. I discovered comics as a twelve year old during Roger Stern's run--it's my favorite period for the character, not simply because of nostalgia but because they're great stories. The Lee-Ditko era was long before my time. But even re-reading Stern's stories, there's a nagging part of my brain that keeps saying Peter Parker shouldn't be in grad-school, Peter Parker shouldn't be in grad school...

The character should have stayed a teenager because that was the defining trait when he was created--it made him unique, made him an everyman that most of the audience at that time could relate to.Sorry to shoot down your brilliant theory, though.

You really think it's that off the mark to not suspect certain fans of wanting everything to be like it was when they were 12? Because, as we know, that mentality is simply a myth. 

To be fair, I hold many beliefs with various characters that are retroactive, like yours. I started following the Hulk right after he was turned gray in 1986/87, but my ideal period for him is 1973-1979. There was a lot of very valid modifications to the Hulk that were for the better by that point. I do understand that Spider-Man is a different beast.

Still, the notion that defining traits when a character first appears should be kept as is forever simply doesn't work in all cases. It doesn't work for most fans with Superman, who in general seem to prefer the Silver Age version far more than any other. I can say that at 8 or 9, when I started following the comics regularly, it would have made no difference whatsoever whether Spider-Man was in high-school or college to me as a very young reader. Both were far beyond my comprehension and interests.

Now that I think about it, my first introduction was probably the Spider-Man cartoon shows in the 80's and even then they presented him as having moved past high-school.  
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 6  

 Mark Haslett wrote:
A nagging part of this for me makes me ask: Is the pro's job to help make money in short, occasional spikes or to protect the assets so they continue to make money for as long as possible?


Based on what's currently being produced? It appears to be the former. Otherwise, why the frequent #1s, leaking story details to USA Today, oversaturating the market with books with "Avengers" and "X-Men" in the title, letting the tail wag the dog as far as movie adaptations go, etc.? But let's take cynicism out of the mix and go with the latter. What does that entail?

Audience interests change over time and characters either have to change with them (see Superman's Kryptonian heritage transitioning from incidental detail in his origin in the 40s (he didn't even know he was an alien until 1949) to it being a vital part of his characterization in the late 50s and onward as science fiction stories became more popular) or go away. A relative handful of characters are flexible enough that a mere change in story focus is sufficient to see them through. Others not so much.

Enabling assets to continue to make money for as long as possible doesn't necessarily mean you need to (or even should) leave them constant and unchanging. In fact, leaving them constant could lead to them NOT lasting as long as they could. At Marvel, where evolution was the norm, most Silver Age characters have been continuously published since the early 1960s. Compare that to the Silver Age DC characters, which established and followed a formula, and were largely gone (as stars of solo books - the Justice League and back-up slots kept a lot of characters out of Limbo) by the early 70s.

I do think the Big Two are both "fan driven" and deluged with short term thinkers these days, but even if there was a proper house cleaning, which I think could lead to a healthier market (albeit after a fair bit of effort; there's a lot of damage to make up for), I don't think folks who feel characters should be ongoing and unchanging would necessarily be any happier.

In a more logical environment, once characters fell below a certain sales threshold, their series would end and that would be it. For properties that would end up getting a revival (only so many trademarks to throw around after all), the publishers wouldn't pick up from before, but rather rebuild from scratch in a modern context ala most of Julius Schwartz' Silver Age stuff.

So to me, a commitment to "evolution-free" comics wouldn't guarantee you additional appearances of your favorite character in his/her "ideal form" (which they may never have gotten to in the first place). It just means that books would be cancelled instead of revamped as audience interests shift.
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Robert White
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 7  


 QUOTE:
How many of those MTU stories absolutely could not have happened if Parker was still in high school?

Valid point. Plot wise I'm sure none of them would be affected. It probably would have been even less of an issue with MTU since the supporting cast was used far less than in Amazing. Still, I don't think we can totally disregard the continuity of the period as having added nothing of substance. 
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 8  

My "ideal" Spider-Man is as a college freshman, I think. In my mind I've always got Peter Parker walking around campus, or skipping class, or working with some wacky professor in some lab... 

But then, I guess a very bright high schooler would pretty much be doing the same things. 

At some point, what I picture as my ideal and what actually works best for the character - if they're not identical - has to give way to what works best for the character, my desires be damned. I think a young college freshman works just as well as a high school senior for age, but if pressed, I'd rather him be a high schooler than aged to the point of being a teacher, an adult scientist, a married man, etc. 
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 9  


 QUOTE:
It's wrong for owners to work in short term thinking? 

Wouldn't that mean the right way to do the job is to protect the assets so they continue to make money for as long as possible?

...like I asked?

Ever heard the expression, "you can lead a horse to water..."

If the owners of the property are only interested in a making a quick buck, then there's nothing you can do. It's theirs. They own it, lock, stock, and barrel. 

At most, you can minimize the damage by turning their short-term dictates into something reasonably decent, but odds are they're just going to keep dictating more and more stunts because you've successfully managed to reward them for their behavior. 

And, quite frankly, unless you're a fan who is "trying to protect" the characters, there's no reason to enter into business with them. Go find someone who is trying to build something and join their team, because they're the future, not the morons intent on running their properties into the ground for pennies on the dollar. 


 QUOTE:
You make it sound like the guy who owns the company tells the writers and artists what to write and draw. That's just not how it works. 

I'm sorry, I've seen far too many stories of writers having status quo breaking edicts issued to them. Hal Jordan in the 90s is a prime example. Someone further up the chain wanted something like that and the only thing the fan-writer on the book could do was walk away and let someone else come in and do their dirty work. 


Edited by Jack Michaels on 07 February 2014 at 4:05pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 10  

Jack: Ever heard the expression, "you can lead a horse to water..."
***
...but you can't make him drink the kool-aid?


+++

Jack: ...I've seen far too many stories of writers having status quo breaking edicts issued to them. Hal Jordan in the 90s is a prime example. Someone further up the chain wanted something like that and the only thing the fan-writer on the book could do was walk away and let someone else come in and do their dirty work.

***

You look at the work of Moore, Bendis, Morrison, David, etc. etc. etc. and you see creators being told what to do by the owners of the companies?

You are jumping contexts to suit your argument. Yes, if the owner of the company tells an artist what to do, then he must do it or leave.

But in the rest of the cases, the creator is at some liberty to protect (or not) the characters he/she makes a living from. You asserted that only fans would want to protect the characters, but that's not even true in theory-- the pros have the most to lose if the characters should go tits up by betraying what makes them work.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | 11  

Dave: So to me, a commitment to "evolution-free" comics wouldn't guarantee you additional appearances of your favorite character in his/her "ideal form" (which they may never have gotten to in the first place). It just means that books would be cancelled instead of revamped as audience interests shift.

***
Where does this notion of cancelled comics come from? Everything being published today sells at numbers that would have gotten them cancelled back when all the characters were still on model. Change has been a major part of this dwindling market.

Meanwhile, my kids can still buy Archie in the exact same form and the same places as when I was a kid.

For superheroes, the concept of "the illusion of change" is what could have been employed to please an all-ages audience over the years. But for too many creators, the "illusion" of change wasn't enough.
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Jack Michaels
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Posted: 07 February 2014 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 12  

Mark, I haven't paid much attention to DC in 20 years and never have paid attention to Marvel, so I'm going by the noise I'm hearing. 

Yeah, if you get a Swamp Thing, then you're pretty much free to do anything you like. If we're talking about Alan Moore, I've never gotten a sense he was even remotely a fan of Swamp Thing. He just saw an opportunity to do something he thought was cool and everyone involved seemed delighted at what he delivered. 

Basically, he was a pro. He was called in to do something with a struggling title and delivered far beyond their expectations and even managed to create a DC mainstay in the process. 

Contrast with the stories coming out of DC today where it's obvious no one has any long term plans, but lots and lots of short-term stunts, which are constantly driving off the talent. 

Now maybe the fans got comics to this dire situation; I simply don't know enough about comic history to say one way or the other, but DC is clearly in a management dictated short-term thinking, which is not going to produce anything of value no matter who steps up to the plate. 

Whatever plan you might have, they're going to get in your way in a major way. Apparently Green Lantern has gotten pretty popular of late and DC did their level best to screw that up by rebooting the universe out from under it, And they did this to one of their biggest sellers. Why would any sane professional want to be anywhere near this company?
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