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DW Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 June 2012
Posts: 444
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 1
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Stan Lee (and Kirby) also gave Reed and Sue Richards a child--a mistake that shot them in the foot, as they apparently realized as Franklin Richards was constantly shuffled off-camera.
And yes, Stan Lee did age Peter Parker, putting him in college...and then KEPT him there for something close to a decade. Stan wasn't perfect, but he learned from his mistakes. Hence, "Never give fans what they THINK they want."
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 10:30am | IP Logged | 2
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Roger Stern noted many a moon ago that Marvel moved in something like real time for about the first two years following the publication of FF1. Then it started to slow down, and eventually stopped.Problem, as always, is that some of the fans who stuck around too long noticed that "time" was passing -- the end of an issue took place later than the beginning of the issue, didn't it? -- and refused to buy into the tradition of "comicbook time." In some ways, we CAN blame Stan and Jack and Steve and the rest for this. They gave us stories that were "realistic" -- or, at least, more realistic than typical DC fare. And some fans just did not know when to draw the line. If the emotional dynamics of the characters were "realistic," shouldn't EVERYTHING be "realistic?" An influx of fans-turned-pro who agreed with this was another nail in the coffin.
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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
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Posts: 12717
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 3
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Charles Schulz for about the first twenty years "aged" his children characters too... very, very, veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slowly. So much that it was an artistic sleight of hand. Moreover, now that we are fourteen years past his death, it doesn't seem that there had been an notion that his comic strip would survive him. There are no ongoing Charlie Brown stories without Schulz. But nothing about the Marvel characters suggested that, at all. Artists and writers (and readers!) came and went, even the originators, even the best of the best, but the characters endured on model and true to their core.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6431
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 4
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Jack: To me, this whole thread seems to be about what the perfect fan-turned-pro should be rather than any real discussion about the differences between fans and pros, because people here want a pro that thinks like they do about these characters and to honor that.
And that's cool, even if it's more than a bit fannish. Hope they can find a large enough audience so they can keep delivering it to you.
**
Any "real" discussion about the difference between fans and pros ends with "pros are paid to work in comics and fans aren't".
This discussion of what considerations are important when a fan turns pro and how such considerations have effected the industry are only "fannish" in the sense that they have had a giant effect on everything so, naturally, fans might care.
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Michael Penn
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Posts: 12717
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 5
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The idea there's an "essential core" to these characters is largely a fan conceit. To the owners of the property, the "essential core" is they make them money, and it's the pro's job to help make that happen. If that means dramatically altering the character to fit the current market, then that's what a pro does unless he can think of a better solution which nets the desired monetary result.
***
Comicbook superheroes have indeed been "dramatically" altered for the sake a "current market" of ever-dwindling, ever-aging adult readers. I've raised a 20 year old boy and am raising a 6 year old boy. Both loved superheroes and wanted very much to find current comicbooks made for them. They found nothing current made for them and moved on. The "essential core" that can easily be observed as having been consistent for decades, for many generations of new kid-readers, for millions of them, was so "dramatically" altered as to kill the industry. Way to go for the money, pros!
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 6
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A lot of this, I'll wager, has to do with when we came in as readers. I started reading Spider-Man in the mid-80's, so I'm naturally predisposed to favor Spider-Man being that age "forever." Could it be that those that came in with the Lee/Ditko series want it to stay like this forever for the same reasons? I can't help but be suspicious.
I think the progress that Stan, Jack and Steve allowed, at least for the first few years, was a good thing overall. It differentiated Marvel from DC and sent a message that the characters were not set in stone like their DC counterparts. Obviously, there had to be some point where the breaks were put on since the characters had to play by the same basic rules that the DC characters did.
What it boils down to for me personally is how good the stories were during the period that Peter Parker was ever so slightly aging or had reached his college or even post college years. I think Spider-Man was in damn fine shape up till the end of Roger Stern's run and I wouldn't want to lose that. Of note, JB's MTU run took place well after the high-school years. I'm supposed to view this period as a "mistake"? Sorry, that's not going to happen.
Edited by Robert White on 07 February 2014 at 11:45am
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4505
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 7
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I don't view any period of Spider-Man as a mistake, but now that I'm older I can see the benefits of keeping him in high school where he started. The character goes where ever the company and editors let him. I might disagree with the decisions and whether it is good or bad for the "health" of the character and his longevity, but it's not my decision.
When I look at the impact comics had on me as a young boy from age 9 to 16 it is nothing short of significant. We have to wait until I reached university with Shakespeare before anything else comes close to competing with how I was shaped by comic books. I wish the current comics could do for my kids what they did for me, but that isn't possible. Comics can change lives, creativity and imagination, but most likely only in a young person. Adult fans have ruined the genre for generations to come in my opinion.
Discovering Spider-Man, the FF, Avengers, Batman, Superman, etc. is better for young kids and teens. I'm glad I had my time with the characters and only left the medium when super heroes grew up. They would appeal to me more if they didn't age. Hindsight is 20/20.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6431
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 8
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Jack: To the owners of the property, the "essential core" is they make them money, and it's the pro's job to help make that happen.
**
A nagging part of this for me makes me ask: Is the pro's job to help make money in short, occasional spikes or to protect the assets so they continue to make money for as long as possible?
If the latter, then protecting that "essential core" should have been job #1. Instead, the powers that be allowed bad creative decisions to "force" a shift to stunt deaths & marriages/annual cross-overs/and continual reboots.
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think part of this is that the growth and change seen in those first few
years of Marvel (before the brakes were put on) became embraced by
a lot of fans as something intrinsic to the "real" Marvel, something that
made Marvel different from DC and other competitors.
Spider-Man moving to college was a status change that made him
seem more "real" to people, and so they felt that growth and change
was an inherent aspect of the character.
Another, similar effect is that on the Hulk. Peter David took those early
stories that constantly changed the character (where Lee and Kirby
were simply finding their way by trying something new every issue) as
intrinsic to the Hulk. So, starting with his run, the Hulk was in a near-
constant state of flux, to the point where he's had dozens do
personalities and incarnations.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 07 February 2014 at 12:48pm
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DW Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 June 2012
Posts: 444
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 10
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<I can't help but be suspicious>
Please. I discovered comics as a twelve year old during Roger Stern's run--it's my favorite period for the character, not simply because of nostalgia but because they're great stories. The Lee-Ditko era was long before my time. But even re-reading Stern's stories, there's a nagging part of my brain that keeps saying Peter Parker shouldn't be in grad-school, Peter Parker shouldn't be in grad school...
The character should have stayed a teenager because that was the defining trait when he was created--it made him unique, made him an everyman that most of the audience at that time could relate to.Sorry to shoot down your brilliant theory, though.
Edited by DW Zomberg on 07 February 2014 at 1:03pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | 11
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JB's MTU run took place well after the high-school years. I'm supposed to view this period as a "mistake"? Sorry, that's not going to happen.••• How many of those MTU stories absolutely could not have happened if Parker was still in high school?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 07 February 2014 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 12
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Another, similar effect is that on the Hulk. Peter David took those early stories that constantly changed the character (where Lee and Kirby were simply finding their way by trying something new every issue) as intrinsic to the Hulk. So, starting with his run, the Hulk was in a near-constant state of flux, to the point where he's had dozens do personalities and incarnations.••• Right there we see the kind of fanthink that does so much damage. When EVERYTHING has to be "real." When something, as with your example, that springs from the creators "finding their way" has to be retroactively carved in stone.
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