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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2364
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 2:28am | IP Logged | 1
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I'm still fairly new to the Forum, but something keeps coming up that's confusing to me. JB (and others) talks about fans becoming pro writers and how these fanboys-turned-pros end up writing horrible storylines that ruin the characters and books.
I'm sorry, I don't see it that way. Some of my favorite pros started as fans (including JB himself) and they seem to be the ones who really care for the characters and write stories that protect the characters more than harm them. The writers that come in and kill everybody or ruin their lives do not seem like they were ever fans and they often show a lack of knowledge of the history of the characters.
If JB is talking about how pros like Julius Schwartz came in from sci fi publishing, that's different. But these days, the pros that come in from other media like TV, novels, or movies never seem to finish anything and seem to do the most damage. I liked Allen Heinberg's work on YOUNG AVENGERS and WONDER WOMAN, but J. Michael Straczynski, Kevin Smith, Brad Metzler, and others just seem to mess things up and then leave.
Is it possible that we're talking about two different sets of fans turned pro? The fans from the 40's thru 60's (like Roy Thomas) turned out to be great pros, but fans from the 90's (like Geoff Johns) brought in the violence and shallowness that they grew up on.
Or am I missing something?
Edited by Eric Jansen on 31 January 2014 at 3:45am
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Conrad Teves
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 3:00am | IP Logged | 2
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Nothing wrong with a fan becoming a pro, as long as they stop acting like fans when they work, and start acting like pros.For instance, a character is tool used in storytelling. Fans think of the characters as people not characters. The audience are supposed read characters as people, that's why they were made to resemble them, but it's hazardous (to a story) for writers to think of them as anything but characters. If, as a writer, you think of them as people, you might start to think things like "it would be cool if A hooked up with B, because I like both of them" etc. Rather than, A wants to hook up with B even though it's antithetical, and I can create drama this way, and feed the story subtext. E.g., Buffy and Angel.
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Dave Phelps
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 6:01am | IP Logged | 3
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Eric, from a comic book perspective, I'd consider almost all the people you listed as "fans turned pro." Anyway, there have been good stories produced for characters by people who grew up with and loved them and there have been bad stories produced for characters by people who grew up with and loved them. There have been good stories produced for characters by people who never heard of them until they were hired to do the book and there have been bad stories produced for characters by people who never heard of them until they were hired to do the book. There are no rules for this kind of thing. I'll admit I feel a sense of trepidation these days everytime I hear about an incoming writer being a "big fan," because it tends to mean they were a big fan of a particular era of a character's history. If I don't agree with them about what constitutes the "good stuff" and/or I feel a lot of what's happened since then doesn't deserve to get kicked to the side, I tend to not be pleased with the results. But I also don't like it when it seems like someone who isn't familiar with the characters coming in doesn't bother to do their homework. But what's being railed against are what's seen as "fan ideas" making it into the published books. Hard to get into specifics because mileage varies, but there are certain things that come across as stories written by fans for fans, sacrificing the accessibility and long term health of the series along the way.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 6:18am | IP Logged | 4
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Once again, we see a specific being turned into a generality, and that generality then being called into doubt. At the core of many of the problems currently vexing the American comicbook industry are fans-turned-pro. ALL fans-turned-pro? No, of course not. But even a superficial examination of the past forty years or so reveals that more and more destructive mistakes have been made as the balance tipped from the Old Pros running the show, to fans-turned-pro being in charge. (The Old Pros created Earth 2 as a fun way to play with elements of DCs history. Fans-turned-pro decided Earth 2 was a "problem" that needed to be "fixed.") Len Wein has said the first story you'd do as a fan should be the last story you'd do as a pro. Many fans-turned-pro adhere to this "rule." Many do not. This, along with other factors also stemming from the influx of fans-turned-pro, led to American comics changing from professional publications to expensive fanzines, where such considerations as deadlines and character integrity are ground under the wheels of ego.
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Jack Michaels
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Joined: 05 June 2013
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 5
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There's pros and cons of both attitudes.
The fan-turned-pro is more likely to believe there's something essential at the core of the property which must be preserved at all costs (although what this is varies wildly from fan to fan). On the downside, there's a tendency to look backward for inspiration.
The non-fan pro is there to do a job, and their biggest motivation is often having a job next year, so they'll do absolutely anything (at least to someone else's stories) to keep their job. If things are going good, this means maintaining the status quo; but if things are going bad... It's not unusual for a struggling show to remake itself for its second season or a fading show to revamp itself for its final seasons. They'll burn the whole thing to the ground if they think there's a better chance of keeping the paychecks coming (the second season of the 80s War of the Words TV show is perhaps the most radical I've seen). The long-term health of the characters is rarely a consideration as most characters don't last terribly long.
Looking at the comic scene today, I think you're looking at the worst elements of both. The people writing the books are often obsessed with the old stories and can't stop referencing or rewriting them. Meanwhile, everyone (especially behind the editors) are trying to keep the paychecks coming and are burning things to the ground left, right, and center to create a bit of excitement which they hope will generate long-term success without any thought to the long-term viability of the characters.
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Tim O Neill
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 6
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JB: "Len Wein has said the first story you'd do as a fan should be the last story you'd do as a pro. Many fans-turned-pro adhere to this "rule." Many do not. This, along with other factors also stemming from the influx of fans-turned-pro, led to American comics changing from professional publications to expensive fanzines, where such considerations as deadlines and character integrity are ground under the wheels of ego."
*****
That last line is perfectly put - "ground under the wheels of ego". True, and depressing.
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Peter Hicks
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Joined: 30 April 2004
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 7
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So JB, did you ever have an idea for a story that you self-edited and decided not to do because it was too fan boy in nature?
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 8
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So JB, did you ever have an idea for a story that you self-edited and decided not to do because it was too fan boy in nature?•• Several. You'll excuse me if I don't list them here. Don't want to give anyone any ideas!!
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 9
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I think when fans turned pro get it wrong, they really get it wrong.
I can think of two examples. My opinion, of course. RTD on DOCTOR WHO is an example of a fan turned pro who I thought did more damage than good.
And Vince Russo, a big wrestling fan growing up (his words), becoming a wrestling writer. He did do some good stuff, but he also did a lot of bad stuff, a lot of it about ego. He even booked himself to become WCW World Champion - and he wasn't even a wrestler!
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Jack Michaels
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
| I can think of two examples. My opinion, of course. RTD on DOCTOR WHO is an example of a fan turned pro who I thought did more damage than good. |
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I invite you to read the novels prior to its return and say that. Doctor Who fared better on audio where the actors defended their characters from inappropriate situations, but it wouldn't be unusual for rape or drug use to be part of the stories.
I'm critical of RTD's run on Doctor Who, but he not only pulled the franchise back from the brink, he towed it out of the abyss it had fallen into. Everything he did was designed to return Doctor Who to the mainstream where it belonged.
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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I know about the Who novels. But I hardly wanted to post a "shopping list" of every singe fan-turned-pro that hadn't been well-received. RTD and Russo were two high-profile examples, hence my including them.
There are some STAR TREK novels I've found to be "fannish", but again, I don't want to post a long list.
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Jack Michaels
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| Posted: 31 January 2014 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 12
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In this case, the novels/audio were the only representatives of Doctor Who (minus one TV movie) since its cancellation in the late 80s. Who had fallen as low as it could possibly go. Without the new series, I'm not sure Doctor Who would even exist as an on-going concern today. Doctor Who Magazine has had a few brushes with cancellation and the novels were on a downward sales trajectory without new fans coming in.
It was not a healthy franchise.
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