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Kip Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011 Posts: 2880
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Posted: 28 January 2014 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | 1
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I think Gwen's death cemented in my mind that death is part of the Spider-Man story. First Uncle Ben, then Captain Stacy, then Gwen. That probably includes villains he has a personal connection with like GG or Jackal. In the back of my mind there is a thought that someone should die in his life every couple of years. That is why when Aunt May died, it didn't bother me; Peter is supposed to suffer loss periodically.
Edited by Kip Lewis on 28 January 2014 at 10:19pm
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 28 January 2014 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 2
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As a story? All-time classic, and a favorite of mine. It's a nail-biter, it's heartbreaking, and it's unforgettable. It reaffirmed the core of Peter Parker's character--even when tragedy surrounds him, he'll still do the right thing, the heroic thing.
Despite what the Goblin has taken from him, Spider-Man refuses to stoop to his murderous level. It's a great moment for the character.
Of course, the Goblin HAD to die, given the severity of the crime. Really, I love the idea of Osborn's ghost and his legacy having a long reach after his death, with Peter being haunted for years by the damage that Norman did to those around him. I can't stand the fact that he "got better", to say nothing of the outrageous "Sins Past" garbage.
Anyway, Gwen's death led to some great stories, which showed Peter mourning and moving on, only to be faced with Gwen's "return" (in reality, the Jackal's psychological weapon against him). In the end, Peter and Gwen's clone part ways, and he moves on with his life.
And that should have been the final word on it. New loves, new adventures.
The problem is that both fans and writers refused to let it go. Story after story, retread after retread, decades after the fact. It's the same as the death of Phoenix--too many trips to that well cheapened the whole thing, and turned it into endless naval-gazing.
How many times has Spider-Man returned to that bridge, either to mope, or to try and save someone else who's in danger? Far, far too many.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 29 January 2014 at 2:34am
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Gene Best Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4598
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 3
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Some great observations here. Eric's comment of, "you sort of get the impression that things mattered more that far back" really resonates with me.
Y'see, I stopped reading comics before "Sins Past", etc. I've never read the stories about twins, totems or resurrected Normans, but I've read about them on the internet - and it just sounds like a terrible mess. When I left comics in 1990, Gwen's death still meant something, and as Greg posted above Osborn's death cast a long shadow. (I always "felt" him in every Hobgoblin story.)
ASM #121 & #122 were big deals to me. I'm glad I wasn't around to see them ... I dunno, "cheapened".
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 2:36am | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
Gwen (and GG) died about ten years into the series, and you sort of get the impression that things mattered more that far back. Now, we're 50+ years into the thing and literally thousands of SPIDER-MAN stories later--you get the impression that nothing they do with him really matters at this point. I always enjoyed MARVEL TEAM-UP, but when SPECTACULAR came along, it really seemed like the stories weren't going to matter as much anymore. When RICHIE RICH and ARCHIE had multiple titles going at one time, you KNEW it meant that nothing of lasting importance could happen to them--and the same was now true for SPIDER-MAN.
I think, for Marvel, you just want to read the first 200 issues of all their books and that's enough. Sure, come back for things like JB taking over FF or other special issues/runs by favorite creators, but, otherwise, the first 200 are enough. |
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I agree. I think a lot of this has to do with the infamous meeting that Stan Lee supposedly called in the early 70's basically telling all the editors and creators to stop moving things forward and to stay the course--since they had finally overtaken DC. Hell, the first ten years of The Marvel Age alone probably has 90% of everything essential till this very day. One of the reasons the Claremont/Byrne X-Men run was so great is because it was one of the few times since that a title was allowed to grow and evolve and add genuinely innovative things to the mix. In retrospect, Spider-Man probably "ends" as a living, breathing franchise sometime before the marriage in 1986. Roger Stern's run was the last time it fully felt like Spider-Man to me.
Edited by Robert White on 29 January 2014 at 2:36am
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 2:54am | IP Logged | 5
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Lucky you, Gene!
While Osborn was necessarily resurrected in order to bail Marvel out of the Clone Saga, I fundamentally disagree with it on the basis that he got away scot free for Gwen's murder. It feels...wrong. The bad guy wins.
But, Gwen turned out to be a cheating whore, whom Osborn killed to get his kids back, so whatever, right?
At its core, ASM # 121-122, while conceived as a "shock" event, still adhered to--and reaffirmed--the strong moral center that Spider-Man is all about. Guilt and responsibility. Doing the right thing, even when revenge would be easier.
Unfortunately, many modern Spider-Man stories have simply gone for shock value, without having any moral or thematic resonance. All of that underscores a fundamental problem in many Spider-Man stories of the last 20 years--Peter Parker's problems are no longer ordinary. Most major stories concern Big Events that completely rip his life apart.
He's a "really" a clone, members of his supporting cast die horribly, his identity is revealed to the world, his long-dead girlfriend is revealed to have betrayed him with his worst enemy, he dies, he gets his eye ripped out and mutates into a spider-monster, he makes a deal with he devil and loses his marriage, etc.
This is a far cry from trying to get medicine for Aunt May, or dealing with Flash Thompson's bullying!
For whatever reason, the last two decades' worth of Spider-Man stories, in particular, have largely misunderstood even the most basic characterizations of Spider-Man and his supporting cast. I'm completely disconnected, at this point. If I picked up a current book, I'm sure the characters would be unrecognizable to me.
That is deeply painful for me, but I'm sorta glad to be done with it. Meanwhile, I have several decades' worth of awesome back issues to read and treasure. And that's all I need!
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Greg Kirkman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 15775
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 3:03am | IP Logged | 6
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In retrospect, Spider-Man probably "ends" as a living, breathing franchise sometime before the marriage in 1986. Roger Stern's run was the last time it fully felt like Spider-Man to me. ++++++++
I may re-evaluate after I get to my read-through of everything from 1962-1993, but my personal shark-jump moment for the character is the "return" of Peter's parents in ASM # 365. It all went totally, irrevocably downhill from there.
I can deal with the marriage, and there were still many interesting stories in the first few years after it.
More realistically, the Stern run (and the early part of the DeFalco/Frenz run) was probably the last time that the real Spider-Man was still around. Things started running out of control as the Hobgoblin mystery turned into a mess, and that subsequently led to the marriage, which led to the robot parents, which led to the Clone Saga, and everything since.
That said, the Clone Saga itself is perversely fascinating, in a train- wreck sense. I've been listening to the CLONE SAGA CHRONICLES Podcast, and it's quite interesting to revisit that material with hindsight.
THAT said, despite some interesting ideas and stories in its early period, the Clone Saga sucked for me when I was ten, and it still does, now.
And, getting back on topic, it all came out of the aftermath of Gwen's death.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 29 January 2014 at 3:04am
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12715
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 5:11am | IP Logged | 7
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In retrospect, Spider-Man probably "ends" as a living, breathing franchise sometime before the marriage in 1986. Roger Stern's run was the last time it fully felt like Spider-Man to me.
***
I completely agree. A few years ago I started re-reading all of ASM and I was anticipating getting to the Stern run because I'd stopped reading comics in the very early 80s. My intent was to keep reading post-Stern, but I couldn't manage it. I found the work after that increasingly poor and once I hit the point of insufferable, I dropped it.
"The Death of Gwen Stacy" storyline blew my mind, as a kid. I didn't then think of it as a wrong turn. But my eyes did roll as soon as they brought back a clone. I hated that from the get-go. Kill her or don't! -- I thought.
Later I realized that it wasn't bringing Gwen back that was the mistake but deciding to kill her in the first place. Fake-outs in comicbooks are traditional. "Batman... DEAD?!", any given cover might lead us to wonder, or some cliffhanger have us on the edge of our seats. But, of course, he's not. Comicbook characters are meant to STAY because they aren't created for one generation of readers. You make a big deal about a character, make a bigger deal about killing her or him, and that's it -- you've defined a point in time that is now the biggest deal of all, and every reader after it is forced to deal with that biggest deal. What a drag! Ruinous, really.
Edited by Michael Penn on 29 January 2014 at 5:14am
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12715
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 5:12am | IP Logged | 8
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Maybe part of the blame has to go to Stan -- it was he, after all, who killed off Captain Stacy. Hmm.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133325
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 5:29am | IP Logged | 9
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He's a "really" a clone, members of his supporting cast die horribly, his identity is revealed to the world, his long-dead girlfriend is revealed to have betrayed him with his worst enemy, he dies, he gets his eye ripped out and mutates into a spider-monster, he makes a deal with he devil and loses his marriage, etc.This is a far cry from trying to get medicine for Aunt May, or dealing with Flash Thompson's bullying! Doesn't seem all that long ago (tho I know it was) that some were criticizing MARVEL TEAM-UP for having Spider-Man travel thru time, or to the Moon -- tales deemed "inappropriate" for a "street level" character.
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Thomas Moudry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5060
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 6:32am | IP Logged | 10
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I'd read some Spider-Man stories pre-Gwen's death, but most of my Spider- Man reading was done post-Gwen's death. I knew it had happened and occasionally cycled around when Peter or Spider-Man needed to deal with some emotional baggage, but it was something in the misty past for me.
Glad I wasn't emotionally connected to the story because what they've done to Gwen in the last decade or so sounds horrible.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133325
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 11
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In retrospect, Spider-Man probably "ends" as a living, breathing franchise sometime before the marriage in 1986. Roger Stern's run was the last time it fully felt like Spider-Man to me. Leaning toward irony, then, that Roger has long maintained that the first issue of MARVEL TEAM-UP marked the "death" of the real Spider-Man -- and the real Marvel.
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Thomas Moudry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5060
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Posted: 29 January 2014 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 12
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JB said: "Leaning toward irony, then, that Roger has long maintained that the first issue of MARVEL TEAM-UP marked the "death" of the real Spider-Man -- and the real Marvel."
__________________
That's a pretty interesting observation. Coincidentally, Marvel Team-Up #1 was the first Spider-Man story I ever read, which led me to read a handful of issues of The Amazing Spider-Man (nos. 111-114the "Spidey Cops Out" storyline) before the Gwen Stacy story.
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